A church in Phoenix is told they can no longer serve the homeless and needy at their church building because it threatens the safety of their community…what do you think?
The Needy Need To Leave?
– March 2, 2010
A church in Phoenix is told they can no longer serve the homeless and needy at their church building because it threatens the safety of their community…what do you think?
About the Author
David R. Dunham (Co-Founder) is a pastor, blogger, and avid fan of pop-culture. He has long been interested in the arts. He received honors for acting throughout high school and college, even being given a scholarship for musical theater to Youngstown State University. He is also an amateur musician, with one album, Get Well Soon, released in 2004. David has a Bachelor of Arts in English Literature and in Pre-Theology from Ohio University, and a Masters of Divinity from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He currently teaches English Composition at Shawnee State University and serves as a staff pastor at Christ's Community Church. David and his wife Krista have two children, and they currently live in Portsmouth, OH. 
I think, on average, such ministries have an ulterior motive, which is to parade the poor before the rich. Is the homeless man sleeping in your alley and urinating on your lawn? Too bad. You’re an evil rich person. It’s your fault that man is homeless. Of course, how many of those homeless are invited into the homes of the parishioners? How many are allowed to sleep in the church during the week? How much of the church’s property is being developed into detached housing for these homeless people? One meal a week gives hope? Bah.
Mr. Poet, are those the things you’re doing? Are you able to do those things? Or are you like me, and live in a flawed world around flawed people and are you forced to settle for flawed solutions to bigger problems. What you’re talking about is social sentimentalism, and it’s the opposite of edifying. It’s ultimately destructive.
Rich, don’t bring the Poet down to your level. You might not be able to handle such radical ministry yourself, but he’s basically like a catlady with cats, only with homeless people. He’s the bagman. Why last year alone, he had 34 homeless people living in his house. Just like Jesus would have.
Um, I think it’s understandable to give a cup of cold water to someone for Christ’s sake while asking that person not to pee in your yard after he drinks the water. ;-)
In the book of Genesis, Isaac dug his father Abraham’s wells again, but the Philistines kept plugging them up. Rather than fight the Philistines, Isaac moved to the next place and the next place until the Philistines left him in peace. That is the attitude such ministries should have. If the neighbors don’t want you around, then shake the dust off your feet and relocate.
A completely reasonable post. I agree entirely.
(note: these two sentences bear no necessary correlation.)
Mr. Poet, What is it exactly that leads you to conclude that these ministries have an ulterior motive to parade the poor before the rich? I, for the life of me, can’t figure out what would lead you to conclude that over and against a genuine desire to care for the needy.
We had a similar situation in my area. The neighboring homeowners did not want the homeless gathering for a feeding program held by several churches. The churches sued and won a restraining order against the city’s feeding restrictions. When I contacted the ministry about the harm this might do to the Gospel in the eyes of others, the person who wrote back sounded giddy that his group was sticking their collective thumb in the eyes of the rich. Meanwhile, did the plight of the poor noticeably improve? Did the light of the Gospel seem to shine brighter in our city? Nope. Instead, I suspect, the words of Jacob to his sons Simeon and Levi might apply: “Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land” (Genesis 34:30 KJV).
And just read, for example, one of the comments left at the bottom of the article itself:
“I hope the people of the church keep doing their good work. It’s just another case of the privileged wanting to pretend that there isn’t misfortune in the world. If anything, it’s a good exposure to reality for their kids” ~ RosalindL.
Am I saying not to feed the homeless? Absolutely not. But use common sense. I read a recent article about a Miami strip where people feed the homeless, and HOMELESS ministries are lobbying to have Joe and Jane Citizen stopped from giving out food. Why? Because the food might be rotten and/or poisoned. Plus the strip is trashed on a regular basis with all the litter left behind. The city cannot remove the litter because it falls on private property.
I must say good for phoenix. At least the city gets it. We are one of the most spoiled nations in the world, yet we have such a large number of homless. Why? Because we expect nothing from them. I have seen so many different kinds of people in my community and I can tell you. If a man in a wheel chair wills himself to go and get a job he can. Yet these people can stand on thier feet for 12+ hrs a day yet cannot work. How many job applications ask you if you have trouble standing for long periods of time? It must be an attribute sought after by employers. Our economy is failing all over the place because poeple expect the Government to take care of them instead of taking care of themselves.
Dont get me wrong there are many people out there who need help. But even those who truely need help have the ability to sometimes find a job and work. Crippled people, blind people, deaf people, all have communities amoung themselves and create their own societies. Yet the church continues to preach about giving to the needy. Where does “if you don’t work, neither shall you eat” come into play?
America is indeed a screwed up country. I blame much of it on our pansey-everybody-lovin-christians. We need Bible-Readin-Bible-Believin-Christians. Our country has children who live in seperated homes, homosexuals that are very vocal and even call us haters, murderers that are called doctors, and we worry about this? No wonder. Our country is in debt so far we will never see the end, we pay taxes to fish our rivers and lakes, we pay takes to hunt, we pay taxes to own land to raise cattle or plants, we pay taxes to have a home, we pay taxes to travel (cause God forbid you ride a horse into town), we pay taxes for everything that is considered a necessity, and are rights given to use by God.
Yet Christians, as right as they may feel, send money over to countries where they can still build homes without paying a builing or zoning fee, fish rivers and streams without fees, hunt without fines, build gardens and own cattle without fees. Sure they pay something for land and cattle, but they are nowhere near our governed control.
Should we help homeless, yes, but truely homeless people. Should we help other countries, yes, especially those counties that are littered with our trash. But homelessness in America, please, there are so many routes one could take to protect themselves and to get jobs to get back on their feet. But by no means should the church burden the community with such things as bringing in homeless from far and wide. Especially when the church is ignoring wisdom given by the Bible.
Wisdom like “Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed”?
Downvoted for irrelevance, obliviousness, callousness, and a rant that went nowhere, had no basis in reality, and seemed to be built entirely of silliness and fantasy.
What constitutes a poor person? How about an idle person?
In the days of the Bible poor people were people who were physically maimed, blind, deaf, mute, fatherless, and widowed. Many of the physically unable people lived on scraps, what ever a person could spare or wanted to spare. These people could not work nor could they openly beg, especially within the cities. The reason was because the priests had basically said if a man is born deaf, blind, mute, or maimed, it was because the parents did some wrong, and now the child was cursed by God. So it was in a sense forbidden by priests to help them. Those poor really needed help. They had nothing. Fatherless and widowed had no source of income due to lack of a man, generally in that day it meant the husband/father had died, not that he ran off with another woman. These people had financial needs that were covered by those willing to help. In Biblical days there was a real need, there were truely starving people.
In todays time, and especially in America, such needs are few. As I said before how can a man stand on the street all day yet not be able to handle a job. There are many places for one to go for a helping hand in getting back on their feet. But why would they want to. Studies show (and these stats were from 8yrs or so ago)that in some of the better “spots” to be had, a panhandler can get 10% of the amount of vehicles that pass. So $10 for 100 cars, $100 for 1000 cars, you get the point. –I will insert here that I have always been amazed that all that money disappears, however other studies show some of the highest earning “homeless” people are really, brilliant rich people abusing compassionate passer-bys, so some are not for real–
The real question is are these people truely needy, or are they simply just lazy? Physically maimed people get jobs everyday, ex-military men with loss of limb, can get jobs. Wheelchair bound people get jobs, deaf people get jobs, blind people get jobs, widowed women get jobs, yet somehow a person with no real physical or mental handicap cannot seem to get jobs. Why? What do they lack that a person with a physical problem has? Maybe self-worth?
I think it’s important to consider the fact that many homeless people have serious mental illnesses that make it difficult for them to hold down a job (e.g., you’re not really going to want a man who is screaming about the bugs he believes to be crawling all over him while he’s bagging your groceries). Granted, there are lazy people and swindlers out there, but I’d discourage judging homeless people simply due to their appearance, and even feeling hatred and disgust toward them without knowledge. Mental illnesses are serious stuff.
Here is more information on homelessness and mental illness:
http://mentalhealth.samhsa.gov/publications/allpubs/homelessness/#parity
You just made that up.
Irrelevant.
I don’t know that that’s really the question. “Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.” So I imagine that when you say we need Bible-Readin-Bible-Believin-Christians, you don’t mean ones who actually believe the words in red.
Of course there are going to be some people who need help more than others, but Scripture nowhere suggests it is our task to decide which one’s are truly deserving.
Everyday? Really? Man, I should maim some of the unemployed men in my church so that they could get jobs that would let them keep their houses.
Okay, here’s a fact for you: if I lost my job today, without being given assistance from somewhere, I would be homeless pretty soon. As it is, even holding a job, I don’t make enough to put money in savings. I’m losing $200 per month. Which is okay for a little while, but if the economy persists in being this painful, I won’t be able to make ends meet.
Sure, but jobs where they can make rent. Not anywhere around here they can’t. Maybe it’s different in the magical faeryland you seem to inhabit. The one with all the Bible-Readin-Bible-Believin-Christians who ignore the passages in their Bibles about giving aid to those who ask it without ferreting out those who “really” need that aid.
Still, it’ll be fun watching you as you begin your task of weeding out truly homeless people. Go get ‘em champ.
Jason, even if what you say is true (and I doubt it is) I would say with The Dane, though without the sardonic tone, that the current economic situation has drastically changed the landscape. Homelessness is happening at an alarming rate to peopel who are in the exact situation The Dane is, and furthermore once a person is homeless it is harder for them to get work. Having no home address, no bank account, and only a few clothes makes it difficult to get hired.
I think your attitude may be blinding you to the reality here, friend.
Here locally we have a place called Able Body Labor. Sure these men are being exploited by the employers. But all in all they still make $8 -$10 and sometimes more an hour. And sure the work is hard physical labor, and you have to rent (until you can buy) shovels, hardhats, gloves, ect. But they are making something. The way I understand it you need nothing except your name. You sign in and at the end of the day you get paid cash with, of course, the taxes taken out. And on any given day they will have too many people. But it is one place that I know of locally.
Really it is all subjective. “I’m not making enough money” is an interesting sentence. I know people who make much less than I do and they still seem to make ends meet. In fact sometimes I am irritated that I cannont figure the whole coupon thing out. Seems I spend as much or more for the newspaper than what I save in the coupons. My wife and I have been blessed, that is for sure. God has come through everytime we feel a pinch. And as such I like to bless people who are less fortunate or who have been caught up in some kind of catastrophy if I can.
Dane would you ever be truely homeless? You have no family no freinds to run to? Would you apply for jobs at Burger King if you had to? Why would you do that? I know I would.
If Churches want to help then maybe they need to help making fishing poles instead of just making dinner plates. The churches could provide the homeless man with a mailing address. Maybe a pastor could quit reading the Bible while sitting in his office and go out with a homeless man every now and then to help them get a job. Maybe then he might learn a real life lesson about brotherly love instead of reading multitudes of other peoples theories and opinions on the matter. Maybe if we are going to run shelters, we ask the homeless to help cook the food and teach them a thing or two about cooking. Maybe some of those elderly ladies that the church keeps telling youth to go help, would be willing to pay a homeless person to come and mow her yard. We all know she offers to pay the kids in the youth group anyway.
There are many things churches could do to help other than providing only a hot meal and a place to sleep. We just have to get past our stagnant ways and change our methods. By creating a place with a hope and want of only feeding homeless is so minimal. And as the people of Pheonix have stated it creates a dangerous situation. You ask nothing of these people yet you give them everything.
While we go back and forth about whether a locality has the right to regulate homeless ministries, the old adage “Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime” may be outlawed:
http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/saltwater/news/story?id=4975762
I guess you’ll have to teach that man to grow vegetables.
^ no surprise there. Wow. Didn’t see that news anywhere and I love to fish. Sorry Dane maybe we will all be homeless and screwed. I figure after they take all of our meat food sources, they will say plants have feelings, and we will no longer be able to eat plants.
But after I thought more about it last night, I came to a conclusion. You presented verses about giving and helping, but is our interpretation of those verses, maybe wrong. You have Jesus saying go help the poor, and Paul saying if you don’t work you don’t eat. Is this maybe a contradiction? No, I think it is a misinterpretation. Jesus told us to be compassionate to the poor, but he showed us much more. I do not recall ever reading a verse where Jesus took off his garment and covered a poor person, nore do I remember it being said that Jesus placed a shekel in a poor mans cup. But you see many examples of Jesus healing blind people, deaf people, maimed and injured people. So really he helped them to be able to go out on their own, instead of just filling their immediate need.
“Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.”
–Yet we see how Jesus’ Disciples ignore that command and instead heal someone–
Acts 3:2″Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3:When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4:Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, “Look at us!” 5:So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6:Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”.
– now sure they had no money, but if they did would they just fill his cup and leave?–
Jason,
I think it would be a grave mistake to pit those collection of verses against one another. As though giving aid to the poor beggar is incompatible with helping people get beyond being beggars. I would also add that Jesus had the power to heal and we do not. So to equate his power to heal a crippled man with our ability to help him get a job is a big leap. Finally, I would say I think you have a very idealistic view of things. It would be great if we could get homeless people jobs, but it’s not an easy task and in some cases there are insurmountable odds facing us and them. As has already been pointed out some have real mental disabilities that go beyond whatever physical problems they have.
Jesus had the power to heal and so did his disciples. What is it that seperates us from them. They were human just like we are human. They just had a bigger faith. If I could I would heal people, and I can. But because I am so afraid of going out and failing, I prove that I lack the faith needed.
I’m not trying to pit verses against one another. I was pointing out they go in two different directions. But Jesus healing verses us helping to get a job is not a leap at all. Yes we have obstacles, and so does the person being helped, but it is better for both you and the homeless man to do so. One you have helped him and as such, you no longer have to continue helping that particular man, and he can help someone else. So by helping one now, I can help two later, then four, ect.. Or I can feed the same man until his needs depleat my finances as well. Then all I have done is grown the homeless population.
“Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.” Many christians have a real problem recognizing that verses as this do not mean neglect your family for the sake of a poor man. They take these verses too literaly, and neglect a trait God has given every man, common sense. I have seen this happen. Watched a man donate and help, and put his family in financial strain. Luckily he saw this problem and stopped. But what appens to the poor man when your money no longer can sustain him? He must find another hand to feed him. And the cycle continues until the man dies or is helped out of his situation.
As utopian as this may seem it is possible. If one Christian focused on one homeless person, it could be done. But instead we donate some money and sit back and let 10-15 christians take care of hundreds of homeless.
“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.”
While we argue about whether a municipality may regulate the time and place of a homeless ministry, the New York State Assembly has before it a bill that, if passed, would ban the use of salt in restaurants for the preparation of food for customers:
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A10129&Summary=Y&Text=Y
No, seriously, read the text of the bill for yourself. So you want to be the salt of the earth, eh? Even poor Job lamented that the unsavory could not be eaten without salt.
And, mind you, see how many homeless people would want to eat your soup kitchen fare if you weren’t allowed to salt the soup pot!
Just out of curiosity, Jason, how many homeless people have you helped get a job?
Look I am not arguing your method. I think we all agree that it is better to help one man get out of homelessness then to perpetuate the cycle for ten men. Nonetheless it takes a lot of time and effort to help one man and there are millions of homeless people. So what do you do with the rest of them while you’re trying to help one? Furthermore, how do you develop a relationship with one if you can’t even welcome him to eat at your church because the city doesn’t want homeless people around? And you still have to wrestle with the fact that many suffer from mental handicaps, it’s not as straightforward as you seem to think.
I think both the film “The Soloist” and the book “Same Kind of Different As Me” illustrate the difficulty of the task you are so flippantly throwing around. Are you familiar with either of these works?
Man Im preachin to the chior on this one. No I haven’t helped a homless person. But that is because the majority of homeless people I see, seem to be perfectly capable people. I have a strong belief that if a man doesn’t work then he doesn’t eat. Yet I have given food to a homeless person every now and again. Where I work I have seen homeless people be violent, and therefore I rarely roll down my window for them.
As far as mentally handicapped. We have places everywhere for them as well. But regaurdless, those are the people that I would consider Biblically poor. They have no place to go. Literally. We have a few really nice mentally ill people here where I live. One in particular, seems to know everybody, and he spends his days walking around the city visiting people at their stores and at their work and stuff, yet the city has embraced him. He is a nice guy, that people have known for, I believe, his whole life. Another guy rides his bike around town picking up cans and trash. By the way these guys both keep clean, and shaved. Not sure if that makes a difference, but they aren’t as threatening looking as many of the homeless people.
You have your homeless that have been in a town since forever that everyone ebraces and loves. But on the other end you have the travelers that no one has ever seen before and everyone is sketchy about. They are quiet, keep to themselves, and just stand around looking like, well, hobo’s. These are the ones that people fear. And as you read in the story there are some who are crimnals. The unfortunate thing is if one is found with something illegal, then all suffer. And when a church invites these kind of people in and, in essence, bring criminals into the city, people get upset.
Yes I would stand with the city if my house was next door to the church, and one out of one hundred homeless was found to be in possession of child pornography. Especially if I had kids. Would I blame the church, no. But I would ask, at minimum, that the church put a limit on how many, and turn away the excess. You feed one, then two arrive, then four then eight, and before you know it your kindness is becoming a danger for others around you. People need discernment, especially when dealing with people who could be dangerous. But that is the thing that is lacking in the church today. These helpers spend all their time trying to figure out how they could help someone before asking God if they should.
No I have not seen or read either one of those materials.
“People who could be dangerous.” Ah, memories of when I called you a sociopath… good times.
The Dane:
So what do you do for the homeless?
I’m not sure what it has to do with anything, Mr. Poet, since I haven’t offered much of an opinion on the article, only stopping by to occasionally marvel at how radically different (and one might say ill-formed if one were me) some people’s opinions are. Jason, for example.
But to answer your question which doesn’t really relate to the topic, the extent of my active homeless ministry (I don’t count activities that my charitable contributions might support) is to give money out of pocket to those who are begging. Sometimes I’ll bring by a meal for those begging for food instead of money. It doesn’t happen a lot because my city isn’t a friendly place for the homeless and the police chase them out. Running into the homeless happened a lot more when I lived in a beach community (there was a lot more compassion in the community for homeless people, so homeless people tended to migrate there).
Most were mentally addled (either through natural handicap or through drug use). Getting a fulltime job at McDonalds would help them stop being homeless. Despite what Jason might imagine. Fulltime at McDonalds wouldn’t even cover the rent for a single bedroom apartment around here. There are organizations that try to help, but part of the problem was hopelessness and a sense that society was against them (which it is).
“There are organizations that try to help, but part of the problem was hopelessness and a sense that society was against them (which it is).”
Which sadly I think has been evidenced in some of the comments, even if unintentionally.
When I said, “Getting a fulltime job at McDonalds would help them stop being homeless,” I meant wouldn’t. Most entry level jobs around here won’t be able to get someone off the street unless they have a large support system.
In my area, there are three people groups who fill out entry-level positions: students, the elderly, and immigrants. Students are generally just working for spending money, as their parents still cover their living expenses. The elderly are generally living either in houses already paid off or in assisted communities. And immigrants around here tend to live in large support communities in which several families will occupy a single house, making meeting rent plausible.
The homeless are probably the closest in situation to the immigrants, only they lack the support system.
I think what gets lost in this is the need to be civil. I live in a condomininum complex. I do not want the homeless living in the woods on our property, urinating and defecating on our landscaping. But I have nearly backed over joggers in our parking lot who live outside our neighborhood and jog in and out of the park next to our property. Joggers include pastors of the church up the street and those with unleashed dogs, despite the large sign at the entrance which says “No Trespassing” and county ordinances about dog leashes.
People park in our lot after the park closes at dusk to go in the park. Our county is facing faces tough times. The park may close until economic conditions improve. If this happens, I expect a flood of parkgoers parking in our lot. They probably will leave their trash, too.
Outsiders walk dogs in our neighborhood and do not clean up after them; use our pool without permission; throw trash in our dumpsters; park in reserved spaces when visiting residents here; and park in our lots to carpool when no one in the carpool lives here.
Now, should I tell my neighbors to be more neighborly and welcome all comers to use and abuse our neighborhood because that is the Christian thing to do?
Uh, I don’t think anyone has suggested that. Or that the homeless should be allowed to pee on your dog. Or lawn. Or whatever.
Ah but Dane, if the church brings in masses of homeless people, for good or bad, where do those homeless go at night? Where do they go when they are not at the church eating? Expressed and implied. It is expressed that the Church is helping homeless, it’s implied that the Church is condoning the actions by the homeless.
And a full time job at McDonalds is better than no job. In your mind, I am guessing here, if your not making enough to rent a place, or buy a place, then there is no point to getting a job. It is much easier for a homeless man to find a place to stay if he offers to help pay for things, or if he goes “halvsies” with another homeless, if one has a job. It is easier to get a job if one is willing to take minimum wage.
I love it when people tell me what is in my mind. It’s such a charming non-existent superpower some people seem to have. It’s cute enough to put a bow on and so I shall: *puts a bow on Jason’s non-existent super power*
Certainly not home. I’m not sure why you’re asking. Where should they go at night?
That implication is not reasonable in the least. That’s like saying since I approve of a homeless guy getting a job to feed his family, I condone him getting a job as a hitman. The two are not related, just like a church’s desire to assist the homeless in their community and what the people they assist do with their lives.
I would agree that in most cases, this is true. Still, while it might help a homeless guy on his way out of homelessness, without help, it won’t get him off the street. In some parts of the country, possibly, but not here where I am. When I was renting a 1-bedroom apartment, that was running me a bit over $1500 per month. I was in the mid-range. The smallest, cheapest apartments were rising up from $1250 per month. And to even get into one of these, potential renters would need good credit and evidence that rent was less than 1/3 of their income.
By all means, I think that the homeless who can get work probably should get work. Even at less than a living wage. Because, hey, every little bit helps, right.
My point to where do they go, was will they be sleeping in your back yard, where your kids may be confronted by them? Will they be sleeping in a park where your wife goes jogging in the morning? Will they be sleeping under a bridge where you fish? Will they be sleeping next to the road where you might splash puddle water on them? Will they be endargering other peoples lives or even thier own? Thats what I mean. And if the church “calls them in from far and wide” then what happens after church doors close?
Who’s to blame when something bad happens? Surely the homeless man would be to blame if he committed a criminal act, but what if the neighbors of the church tell the church they are uncomfortable with so many homeless being nearby? The neighbors have expressed to the church a fear, warranted or not, about the number of homeless people. If the church ignores those neighbors and something happens, did the church play a role? I know I would be ticked.
where do you live? Man rent here is roughly averaged at $500 a month. My wife and I bought (well we had land as collateral) a trailer, and are less than $300. If your paying $1500 for a rental you got royally jipped. You could buy a $200,000 home @ 7% fixed 30yr mortgage for less than that. And in the end you could own it. If that is your situation man Im sorry.
By the way thank you for the bow, it made my superpowers even more prettier.
But this doesn’t have anything to do with the conversation here or the article. Nobody’s recommended calling the homeless in from far and wide and then just saying, “Alright, guys. Thanks for coming.” and just leaving it at that.
You argument here lacks teeth because it’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Even in the fruitless realm of weird hypotheticals, if the church decides reasonably that the neighbourhood’s concerns are unwarranted and then something happens, the church will either be found to have been negligent or not depending on, one would presume, whether they were negligent or not. My guess is that the church would not be found to have been negligent because a large gathering of people you don’t like or uncomfortable with doesn’t necessitate a danger to the community. Classist prejudice is not an admirable trait in a community and not something we should congratulate.
Of course you would. And you’ve already shown yourself to be an absolute bastion for rational thought, so why wouldn’t you be ticked?
I live in Southern California. I used to live in a mobile home on State property and rent was only $900 (I owned the mobile home but not the land it rested on), but then the state decided to repurpose the land for use as a campground, so I had to find an apartment.
I recently bought a small house for $350,000 (that’s as cheap as they come out here) and my monthly payment on that is, well, expansive. Some parts of the country are definitely easier to get by on lower incomes. If I had my present salary in non-urban areas, I’d be able to get by easy, but because of the region I live in, things will always be tight. It’d probably be easier for a homeless person to get back on their feet in Oklahoma than in Orange County, so there are these things to consider.
To truly give a homeless person a hand up instead of a handout is a difficult endeavor. And that is if the homeless person agrees with your plan of action 100%! A long-term homeless person may be missing vital papers. Without state ID, Social Security card, and/or birth certificate, forget landing a legal job. I once met a young lady, who was not homeless. She moved here from a U.S. territory. But she could not prove her citizenship without papers from her island. And she could not return to her island without proper papers. So she was stuck here with no job and no way to get home. Thank God a church was taking care of her while she waited for her high school transcript to be processed at the island.
Even with proper papers, a homeless person needs a legal residence. Not all localities count homeless shelters as legal residences. Then there is the stigma. Employers will learn over time the address of the homeless shelter and not hire anyone from the shelter.
Even with proper papers and a legal residence, though, giving too much to the homeless is a disincentive to productive work. Why work at the local McDonald’s for just above minimum wage when one can earn $10 to $20 an hour at a choice corner? Even so, legal work is better than begging or under-the-table jobs. It is not as dangerous, plus being employed illegally opens one up to exploitation and arrest. Illegal earnings often cannot count towards a lease at anywhere except motels and flophouses. Friends and family who take in a homeless person may kick that person out with no recourse, since the homeless person is neither on the deed nor the lease of the property.
I have not dealt with the homeless too much in my life, but I do have immigrant friends and acquaintances. Many live on the periphery of lawful society. I try to persuade them as best I can to find legal work and follow the rules in their leases, but it is difficult to convince someone from a country where laws are not taken seriously, corruption is rampant, and people do whatever they have to do to live. Then trouble comes, and they are scrambling because a roommate or the landlord is kicking them out, or their boss fires them without giving backpay and no unemployment insurance.
Having dealt with all this, and understanding the very real problems homeless people have getting back on their feet (and that is when they do not have mental problems or other disabilities), I get irritated when I believe a church wants to minister to the homeless, what the neighbors think be damned. Or they open a ministry KNOWING that the neighbors will not like it, and that is part of the point to their ministry: irritating the well-to-do because “they need to know that these people exist and aren’t going away” or some such philosophy. I think it is better for the church, the neighbors, the homeless, and the Gospel to locate such ministry where there will be peace. Let the rich explain their attitude to Christ at the day of judgment.
Mr. Poet,
You’ve made some excellent points that really do threaten Jason’s view of just how simple this process is. Your last comment, however, is strange. I think we would all agree that a church doing ministry just to “irritate” others is a bad idea. But, again, I think you’re assuming that the church is in fact doing this. One or two examples from your own experience do not mean that every church is infact out to simply shake fingers at the “rich”. Why can’t a church simply have a heart to care for the people that many others are ignoring?
I do not know if that Phoenix church is doing that. But I do think some ministries and some people who work with the homeless do so to show up the rich. I am cynical about human nature, but that does not mean I am against charity. Some people find my opinions absurd. Some find my application of Scripture even worse. That is, if I attended that church, I would advise the leadership to scale back the feeding program to within the letter of the law, partner with other churches to spread the homeless across the city, and live and let live, rather than suing the city. Only if the law were so onerous as to blatantly block the Gospel from all homeless would I sue.
We have a homeless sheltering program in my city which seems to fit within the letter of local law. Churches cannot house but so many homeless and only for, I think, one week out of the year. So this particular ministry has different churches shelter a limited number of homeless for a week at a time. Sure, these churches could sue the city and the counties till kingdom come, or they could tweak their mercy ministries to obey the law.
Mr Poet does make valid points. And I agree paperwork is the most difficult part of getting homeless out of their hole. But even so it is not immpossible. Immigrant workers are very big here in Fl. I sit on the fence on this issue. I have no real care if they are being paid $4 an hr, because they are illegally here. Also their cheap labor helps the economy. But sometime the workers sue because they are getting paid so little, and the farmers get screwed in the deal because they were found to be wrong. The workers are illegal…. IN any case at least the immigrants work for thier money.
As Poet stated, why would they want a job when they can get $10 – $20 an hr on a corner. My point prescisely. Why would they try to better themselves if we are going to cater to their needs? Even more aggrivating is where does that money go?
Dane: My argument deosn’t lack teeth. That may not be the direction of the article, but that was the direction of the discussion. The point is valid, if you bring them in where do they stay?
Mr Poet: I too get aggitated with Christians and Churchs “claiming” to do the right thing just to annoy the city people. I recall one story here in Fl where a church turned an old city building into (I cant remember the whole story) something like a youth hangout. They built it x amount of feet from a liquor store. Then not long after they went after the liquor store. The church lost, but what they did was dispicable. Especially when the Bible itself does not say drinking is wrong. But sueing a city because of thier right to help homeless people, really, there are bigger issues in the world that we could unite against, and this is what they do. Many Christians fight battles against petty things. Liquor stores, curse words, drinking, and smoking. Then they put up a good front against others, pornography, abortion, homosexuality, and adultery. But the bigger and more Biblically sound issues get forgotten about simply because no one wants to address them.
“I have no real care if they are being paid $4 an hr, because they are illegally here. Also their cheap labor helps the economy.”
Wow! It must be nice to have your ethics so simply black and white instead of having to wrestle with specific situations like the rest of us.
Sorry David, but sometimes that is exactly what we need, black and white thinkers. It is those who have many shades of grey that compromise both black and white.
I lean towards free market capitalism. We have too many laws, which make gainful employment at a decent wage difficult. A decent wage is difficult because so many laws make so many aspects of our lives expensive, and not just from high taxation. But I am not idealistic about what America might be like without minimum wage, overtime, worker’s compensation, unemployment compensation, and child labor laws. We would revert to the bad old days. How do I know? Workers are exploited across the world, and people are the same wherever you go.
Also, as I drove down a picturesque shopping district with one of my immigrant friends, I told her that without zoning laws, the more or less uncrowded sidewalks of the shopping district’s thoroughfare would be packed with barking businessmen selling goods from makeshift stalls like you see in other countries’ marketplaces on television.
“I have no real care if they are being paid $4 an hr, because they are illegally here.”
I took an immigrant friend to a job interview at a grocery store owned by another foreigner. He offered her four dollars an hour. I wanted to tell that owner that I would not spit on his sidewalk for that kind of money.
Yes David, don’t be stupid. Of course we need people who care nothing for nuance, context, circumstance, or complexity. We need people who can look at a situation and instantly know without thinking what the solution is. We need people who will act on gut instinct rather than after careful consideration. We need people who will blind themselves to the intricately woven nature of ethical questions and proceed without fear, shame, or dignity wholly on the basis of their predispositions. We need that kind of tenacious adherence to ignorance because if we don’t have people like that, how on earth will we ever get anything done??
I can’t believe you don’t get it yet, David. *shakes head in shame*
Sorry Dane, you’re right. What was I thinking. I have compromised the truth because I was worried about something silly like “dignity.” My eyes have been opened.
A thief stole money from an elderly woman. Does his circumstance, context, or complexity matter. He is a thief. Just because he did it because he needed the money for whatever purpose doesn’t matter. He still committed the crime. People get blurred by listening to the situations and the circumstances, then think “well she had plenty of money”. People use such things as excuses for their actions.
But ask a man how he went from near poverty to having hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he will tell you “I decided to make a change” Will power has something to do with homelessness. Some circumstances you cant’t fix, and I know that. But you have to make a decision of whether those circumstances are going to rule you. In the military you are taught to “Adapt and Overcome”, the same is true for life. If you don’t like your circumstances, then fix it.
Wait are you saying that homeless people are parallel to thieves? If so are you suggesting we put them in prison, some actually make that argument (i.e. that it’s a crime to be homeless)?
I was refering to the whole black and white verses grey comment (only) made by Dane about adding in other information in a situation. Yes some things you can look into deeper. However our judicial system spends too much time listening to all the irrelevant facts before deciding if a thief is a theif. If a man robs a woman, I do not need to know that he has been depressed cause his mother died. He committed a crime. That is all I need to know.
Im not saying put them in prison. Not all are bad people, Im sure only a small percent have committed jailable crimes. I would like the church to try to long term help rather than short term help.
And besides right now I can choose whether or not to feed them. If they go to prison I’d be forced to feed them.
“And besides right now I can choose whether or not to feed them. If they go to prison I’d be forced to feed them.”
I think this comment characterizes what’s wrong with an entire approach to helping the poor. For the sake of my own sanity and time I will bid you well on your quest.
Whenever I don’t have a lot of time, I just skip ahead to the Dane’s comments. Then I get the gist of the whole thing. :)
Well, here’s an article that really is sad:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/mar/10/fridge-house-electricity-homeless
A woman was evicted from her house by the local government because she didn’t have a working refrigerator or AC. And another woman had a bad roof, so the city kicked her out, bulldozed her house, and then charged her $20,000 for doing it.
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