Music
The Failure of Christian Hip Hop
“Most of these cats is featherweight.”-Talib Kweli
I’m a little reluctant to publish this piece for a couple reasons. One, I don’t want to give the impression that I’m an expert on the history or state of hip hop music. I’m not. In part, this should be automatically obvious if my general thesis is true. Second, while I quite enjoy hip hop music and have for some time now, I realize that my doing so is all sorts of ironic, given my own social standing and upbringing. Additionally, I know that my take on these issues are as much shaped by regional factors as it is by socio-economic and racial factors, and so a good bit of what I have to say here requires being taken with a grain of salt. With these caveats firmly in place, I’d like to account for the utter failure of Christian hip hop.
These musings stem from a recent concentrated meditation on the work of hip hop artist Mos Def and to a slightly lesser extent, his partner in rhyme, Talib Kweli. It’s worth noting that listening to Mos Def was recently listed as something that white people like to do. In fact, I have to admit that I received my copies of Black Star and Black on Both Sides from a gifted upper middle class white kid. Much more, the only people I knew in high school who listened to Mos Def were people of a similar demographic stripe. Fully aware of this, I still have listened to these CDs intently for years, unmoved by the fact that I’m just a statistic. And with every listen, I’ve fallen into a deeper and deeper appreciation of the craft that Def and Kweli offer.
Ashamedly, I have to admit that I am basically ignorant of the growth of these two artists over the past decade, knowing only that each of them have released several independent albums which I hope to obtain for myself one day. I can, however, speak to the immense critical praise that their debut production meritted. Allmusic calls them one of “the most intelligent rappers to grace the vapid hip-hop scene in the late ’90s.” Largely influenced by several social activist influences of the twentieth century, Def and Kweli emerged from the Brooklyn underground as articulate social critics of the violence and general depravity that quickly became associated with their genre, not to mention with African-American culture in general. Breaking stereotypes of the black man trapped in a vicious socio-economic cycle (a point they implicitly make in a soundclip opening the track “Brown Skin Lady”), they conceive of themselves and their work as less entertainment and more something like prophecy. The fusion of counterculture ideology with sensual beats and flowing rhyme is known in some circles as “conscious hip hop” so named for its appeal to transcendent human qualities such as wisdom, contemplation, ethics, and reason - features pervasively absent in the baser, more violent forms of rap and hip hop.
Perhaps the most remarkable feature of Mos Def and Talib Kweli is the mere fact of their success. To be certain, a major selling point for the Black Star duo is their simultaneously provocative and tight lyrical wordplay, cast over somewhat classy beats, a mixture of old school simplicity and jazzy sampling. Having first established themselves within the indie hip hop scene, their musical credibility has never been a question - and yet, these gentlemen began their career selling gold albums infused with moral exhortation and spiritual reflection (cf. the intro to Black on Both Sides, wherein Def waxes thoughtful on the need for people to realize that they are made by God). The only comparable entity that comes to my mind is that interesting creature known as “Christian Rap.”
The situation in brief.
Without doing much research, I think it might be a sound estimation that the first established combination of Christianity and rap can be found in dc Talk (even though they danced from genre to genre over time). While dc Talk made the idea of simultaneously rapping and loving Jesus plausible, their primary offering was novelty more than it was anything like aesthetic experience. Alongside rock counterparts such as Jars of Clay and Audio Adrenaline, a brand new market of alternative contemporary Christian music exploded into existence, and as this market expanded and matured, so did the diversity and complexity of its genres. As this pertains to Christian rap, one label took up notable prominence (probably due to a lack of competition): Gotee Records, founded in part by dc Talk member Toby Mac.
Likely without exception, Christian rappers (and their fans) draw from a peculiar sect of Christianity known as “evangelicalism.” Evangelicalism is generally characterized by post-fundamentalist disinterest in confessional concerns of the Church, and even formal ecclesial institutions in general, focusing the brunt of its energy, rather, on the more missionary tasks of evangelism and conversion of individuals. It may very well be the dominant religious presence in America, but if it is not, it is at least one of the largest - and if not the largest, at least one of the most powerful. This is evident simply in light of the fact the President George W. Bush - an evangelical - was elected for even a second term.
While one could write endlessly critiquing this trend, that’s not quite the agenda I have in mind. But as as the sins of a father often pass on to his generation, so do the main weaknesses of evangelicalism penetrate the work of its artists. I think these sins can be listed severally:
- Evangelical Hip Hop is confessionally shallow. Evangelicals’ basic suspicion of doctrinal nuance and distinction leads to a shallow understanding of the gospel and the world. This generates an obnoxious reductionism, wherein believing the gospel is reduced to having a personal relationship with Jesus, and the world is nothing but the battleground of conversion. Thus, each song can only become reiteration of a single, simple theme. This is fine, of course. The gospel ought to contain the entire narrative of the universe as it does involve the one in whom we move and live and have our being. But evanglical hip hop tells a lie by reducing that single theme of the entire cosmos to something so dimly existential as yours and mine own “personal relationship with Jesus.” A more robustly confessional influence would free Christian rappers to appreciate the subtleties of existence and maybe even enable them to celebrate aspects of their lives as created goods to be wholly received with thanksgiving.
- Evangelical Hip Hop is vocationally confused. This is the classic problem of the parachurch. Christian rappers often view their own work as a ministry of God. That is, there is a very real and present consciousness among the Christian rap artist that not only is he an “ordained” minister of the gospel, but that he depends on that fact to validate his entire project. In the Bible we see that the ministry consists of things such as the preaching of the Word, the washing of the Baptismal Waters, the fellowship of the saints, prayer, the absolving of sins, partaking in Holy Communion, and so on - and all these things under the care of duly appointed elders. Both this and crafting songs for the general populace can be done unto God, with thanksgiving and his blessing - and both, too, can be said to be a response to our “calling” - but there is a very real sense in which we must never conflate these two things. This popular misconstruing of “the priesthood of all believers” has resulted in the abhorrent belief that the graces of the media of film, music, and writing are on par with the graces granted by the practices which God has specifically commanded and to which God has promised his certain blessing if we attend to them. Ironically, in attaching sacred importance to their labors, Christian rappers undermine the credibility of their own product and distract believers from the primacy and basic sufficiency of ordained means of grace. Rather than trusting in the encouragement of the sermon, many individuals feel that the grace granted through the publicly preached Word can be substituted with anything they like - even hip hop. This is clearly a problem that goes much deeper than a subgenre of a subgenre, but it certainly shows its fruits here.
- Evangelical Hip Hop is a misapplication of a medium. While the saying “the medium is the message” may have some problems, there is some truth to it. Rap is a specific genre developed in a very specific cultural context by a certain people that gives it a special integrity. Evangelical wasps, to a large extent, do not share in the same history as most rap musicians. Thus, it ought to be an open question whether or not the medium of hip hop music is an appropriate medium for evangelical agendas. This is not to say that spoken word over percussion is somehow antithetical to the gospel, but it is to say that we ought to consider a bit more closely what sorts of things appropriately “mediate” the gospel.
What can we learn from Mos Def?
In these failures of Christian hip hop, we can see where Mos Def and Talib Kweli succeed. First of all, Def and Kweli have a fairly literate grasp of the world around them. Their interests aren’t so esoterically circumscribed by the phenomenon of personal conversion that they’ve forgotten the world around them and its complexity. They can comment on global politics and religion as much as they can talk about local the social and ethical complexities of urban living. That is to say that Black Star loves (or at least knows) the world they speak of.
Secondly, Def and Kweli don’t suffer from the same false pretenses that their Christian counterparts do. To be sure, there is some analogy between the prophetic tone of “conscious hip hop” and Christian rap, but even when Black Star is at its preachiest, it’s not at the cost of entertainment - which, to some degree, is what all music is. The bottom line for a sound rap musician is impressing his audience with his lyrical creativity and vocal competency, and this against the backdrop of head-bobbing beats. Christian hip hop forgets this sometimes, and as a result replaces aesthetic dynamics with frustrating didactics and propositional finger-wagging. But according to Entertainment Weekly, this is precisely what Black Star does not do. Christians should take note.
Finally, though, we should note that the Black Star project, like much of hip hop, is a community project. Just taking into account the liner notes, adding up the number of producers and performers that show up on a single LP, we count something like 14 individuals, many of these having well-established music careers of their own. No doubt Christians have employed such collaboration in their own hip hop efforts (cf. the DJ Maj mixtapes), but the mere collaboration is not the point. The point is that hip hop as a fixed genre is something deeply linked to a community of individuals, a community that informs and is even somewhat held together by its music. Whatever amount of criticism or social commentary that Def and Kweli offer, that criticism and the style in which they present is an organic outgrowth from the values and beliefs of their own people. Largely drawn from suburban middle class white kids, Christian hip hop seems to parody this.
Co-opting a genre that bears the mark of a culture basically alien to itself, Christian rap lacks the proper “street cred” necessary to make its testimony convincing. Much more, it makes light of the very romance and intrigue that rap music offers its outsiders, supposing that it can simply transplant a culturally saturated style from its origins, substituting in its own evangelical ideology and simultaneously sanitizing the genre of the very rough edges that distinguish it. Thus, no self-respecting music lover can ever take Christian rap seriously. It’s a classic case of divorcing form from content, a perennial no-no in all things aesthetic. Insofar as Christian hip hop does this, we must conclude that it is a failure.
First: none of the issues you have outlined in Christian hip-hop are absent from Christian-rock or Christian-electronica or _______. So it’s somewhat misleading in that sense.
Secondly, there ARE Christians doing exactly what your are describing. Check out Lifesavas, Tunnel Rats, Gospel Gangstas, and dozens of others.
Third, there are also tons of people who are not professing Christians who fit the bill; The Gift Of Gab (from Blackalicious), Saul Williams, Lyrics Born, Atmosphere…
So, while you sort of have a point it doesn’t really relate that well to hip-hop specifically in any way that I can see. It relates to evangelical Christians in art. For much of the same ideas, there has been an ongoing series in HM magazine covering this exact issue (”Why do evangelicals make bad art”)
Jordan Peacock’s last blog post..Noor, the Little Sunshine
This is EXACTLY what’s brought up in the movie “JESUS WAS A TERRORIST” - it’s like it predicted the future.
I, with you, lament the lameness of evangelical music or art or whatever, but I also lament the lameness of what mostly makes the radio, be it specifically Christian or not. The mainstream Christian bands/groups cited are bad, yes, but so are most mainstream secular bands/groups. There are Christians doing great art AND there are non-Christians doing great art. The problem is that typical big gatekeepers (non-new media based) don’t offer a place for great art, just great profit…most of the time they are inversely related.
So I think we can find people creating beauty, but I don’t think we should expect to find it in the same places (unfortunately).
Thanks, guys, for the feedback.
I should say, first of all, that I agree with both Greg and Jordan, that there really are a number of exceptions to the rule. Jordan, thanks for some of those recommendations. I was already aware of the Tunnel Rats, but I didn’t recall them being so talented. And you’re right, these guys are offering a lot of what I’m looking for.
In fact, this already long piece was going to be longer. I had intended on closing by pointing out some examples of people that are getting this right - or that are at least headed in the right direction. I think Uprok-type artists show a lot of potential - or at least some of them do.
But really, Gospel Gangstas? I don’t know if I’ve heard them before, but from what I can tell of them on their website, they seem to be guilty of everything I named here.
My main criticism is with the genre as a whole, not its rare jewels. And even with groups like Mars ILL, Manchild being one of my all time favorite MCs, I’m still not entirely convinced that he’s going about the whole thing correctly.
And I don’t think that it’s really accurate to say that everything here applies every Christian subgenre. I think, for example, that Christians have made a lot more headway in rock music, than rap, and I think there’s some real reasons for that - reasons which I have been planning on putting together in a separate post.
Thanks for the input on the HM articles. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find them online. If you have a link or something, that’d be great.
Scott’s last blog post..Typology and Ontology
i definitely would not consider any of these mainstream artists you have in mind and list evangelical in the matter. they may be Christians, but their ways to use the medium of their music to uplift Christ is not their goal IN THEIR MUSIC and LYRICAL CONTENT. check out FLAME (myspace.com/flame314) or Lecrae (myspace.com/lecrae) - these are artists that i would call Evangelical Rap artists
The HM series is only in the magazines, sorry.
In response to your points about hip-hop being peculiar or only the rare jewels
1. Evangelical Hip Hop is confessionally shallow.
This is an issue with evangelicals, not with hip-hop. Evangelicals making hip-hop will, almost by definition, have this issue but it’s not due to their sound, it’s due to their worldview.
As for confessionally shallow, praise and worship music is probably the most flagrant violator.
2. Evangelical Hip Hop is vocationally confused.
Again, praise and worship anyone? But I’ve stopped reading Christian rock rags because I’ve become numb to the perpetual ‘Christians in a band’ vs. ‘Christian band’ mandatory questioning. This was a HUGE issue with the original onset of Christian rock.
3. Evangelical Hip Hop is a misapplication of a medium.
Rock was developed in a context of rebellion; doesn’t mean all rock involves it. Black metal evolved in a context of Satanism, church burnings and desecrations and murder, but that doesn’t stop Extol, Horde, Lengsel, Slechtvalk, and others from re-envisioning the context for the genre.
I’m sorry, but they are all fallacious arguments. You have some good points, but they are more closely tied to how churches and evangelicalism have viewed art than anything else. Because the church is operating the slow boat, the (Christian/evangelical) hip-hop scene is where the (Christian/evangelical) rock scene was 10-15 years ago. Give it time, it will diversify, the artists will mature, and break free of the bonds that we restrict them with.
Some already have…
And mam, if you think Saul Williams is not ‘evangelistic’ you must listen to him. He speaks as a prophet with such power and authority that one must tread cautiously to avoid being sucked in.
Peace
hewhocutsdown’s last blog post..Noor, the Little Sunshine
“I think it might be a sound estimation that the first established combination of Christianity and rap can be found in dc Talk”
Really?
I mean . . . really?
Dude, I’m sorry, but this was a poor beginning to an article that seemed to be astonishingly misguided. I suggest you do some serious research on the beginnings of hip hop. You’ll find that the hip hop culture and faith went hand in hand for many of the early pioneers of the genre. It’s not as though someone came along one day in the mid 90s and decided to glue the two together forming some oddly shaped contraption that tries to resemble the original form.
You also should begin studying the diversity within the Christian* hip hop culture itself. You’ll find an amazing array of talented artists that range from (apparently so-called) evangelical artists to artists who put on a fun show in the club and then are able to share their faith with cats after the show is done. Point being - there’s a lot more to meets the eye with this genre than I think you’ve looked into.
It’s good that you’re making an attempt to find a stance on the music or purpose of the genre, but it’s almost like the guy who sees one political commercial on the TV and then decides to go cast his vote based on it and tells others to do the same. If you would like some resources the help further your knowledge on Christian hip hop, I’d be happy to hook you up.
Not mad at ya, just offering my opinion.
Kiel’s last blog post..Don’t Dink and Drance!
@Jordan
Hmm, I’m not sure what you mean by “they are all fallacious arguments.”
If you say that there is a large scale problem with evangelicals’ view of art, and I say that Christian hip-hop is largely drawn from these people, then doesn’t it follow that (mainstream) Christian hip-hop proceeds from problematic views of art - and because of this it fails?
I wonder how much we actually disagree, Jordan. I might have overstated the case (largely due to the fact that I didn’t include my positive appraisals which I really do have), but I’m having a hard time following your argument. This is what I’m hearing:
“When Christian rap is bad, it’s because it’s been controlled by misguided evangelicals.”
Right. And it has been controlled by misguided evangelicals (maybe this is where we disagree). But if I’m right about the constituency, then I’m right to blame the constituency for their product, right? Help me out here.
There’s alot to be said for your point that Christian rap is now where Christian rock was 10-15 years ago - I think there’s a lot of truth to that. But something about the way you state this evidences that you ignored my point that it might not be necessarily true that the role of the Christian musician is too recontextualize already established genres.
@Kiel
I’ll gladly take you up on your offer. I don’t know if you read it, but near the beginning, I intentionally disqualified myself several times to speak as an expert. (I think that was the point of the whole first paragraph.) Even the very quote you cited contains some evidence of this. (Note the passive “I think” and “estimation”.) So, in case it’s not obvious, if you’re ready to share, I’m more than ready to hear.
I will point out, though, that you seem to have largely missed point if I’m reading this part correctly:
“…artists who put on a fun show in the club and then are able to share their faith with cats after the show is done.”
I think the implied responsibility that these artists ought to share their faith after the show betrays an understanding that I am pretty self-consciously attacking.
Scott’s last blog post..Typology and Ontology
*missed the point
Scott’s last blog post..Typology and Ontology
Scott,
I’m not sure if the idea of recontextualizing hip-hop is relevant much anymore, at least as a genre. While hip-hop did spring out of a specific culture situation in the late 70’s, since then it has been adapted and altered and evolved to fit a tremendously broad set of cultures. I know personally that Hip-Hop in L.A. is something specific and different from Hip-Hop in many Southern cities, or from NY. In other words, Hip-Hop can (and is) used by many different people groups as an authentic voice. Some of these groups are Christians. For example, there are a number of MCs who are believers and are generally accepted by both secular critics and Hip-Hop heads in general as good (dope) authentic Hip-Hop. My own group has been well received by secular critics, some of whom are shocked that they could enjoy Hip-Hop made by Christians (I’m not trying to set us up as an example of how Christians should make excellent Hip-Hop, because we’re not–but we are trying).
So I guess I would say that while I agree with most of what you’re saying here, I don’t think that we should go so far as to say that Hip-Hop is an inappropriate medium for Christian artists (I know you didn’t go that far, but just to make my point). I would, however, gladly say that for the most part, Hip-Hop is inappropriate for evangelism, and that certain styles of Hip-Hop (Gospel Gangstas?) do not fit the content and are therefore aesthetically poor.
-alan
I wrote two posts on a related topic a few years back:
Christian Hip-Hop: Is it Viable? and a Conclusion to that article.
@Scott - It is a testament to the depth of your article that I read it at all (being someone who is almost entirely uninterested in hip-hop). I enjoy some hip-hop like Blackalicious, Digable Planets, and DJ Shadow, but conversations about what they’re trying to say pretty much bore my socks off (as would similar conversations about and musical group’s intentions—really, would would look to musicians for wisdom?).
But you made a number of valuable points and that kept me interested. A number of commentors have criticized you for speaking specifically about hip-hop when your critique could likewise be applied to other musical genre and even other media entirely. I noticed the same thing but counted it as one of the articles triumphs rather than something to be scorned. Reading your estimation of “evangelical” hip-hop brought to mind the gross tragedy of evangelical art, literature, music, and cinema.
Anyway, you got sour grapes from enough quarters that I thought you should get some high-fives from an unlikely source.
The Dane’s gone soft?
So are you saying experience should tell the stories? Instead of rap focusing on just the message of Christ and how many people can we reel in; the artist should focus on their own experiences and how they dealt with them or chose to deal with them? So as to not leave out the fact that the world still goes on.
@Alan - Come on, don’t you see the hint of a smile playing around the corners of my mouth? I’ve always been soft! It’s the world around me that’s… that’s… just so hard. *weep*
Actually, it’s house policy that I say something agreeable in every thirty-forth comment I make in order to offset the thirty-three negative ones I make.
I”m sorry if I came off as unnecessarily harsh. As The Dane said; it is a well written, engaging article.
However, your thesis revolves around evangelical HIP-HOP somehow being unique in the world of art, rather than EVANGELICAL hip-hop…and this is where we differ. The worldview, evangelicalism, is where the issues you are describing come to the fore, not the genre.
Obviously, when the two are conflated you will see all the same issues, but all it takes is a cursory look at how dozens of other genres and art forms have been treated by evangelicalism to realize that this is nothing peculiar to hip-hop. If nothing else, it is following a rather steady tradition.
So your arguments are valid and appropriate IF they are saying that:
a) these are identified in some Christian hip-hop today
b) this is due more to the type of Christianity they embody that the type of music.
But that’s not what the gist of your article is saying - your arguments are being used to prove something that they don’t actually prove.
That’s where my beef is. :)
PS-I was listening through all my old Public Enemy discs and I just realized how many times dc Talk sampled them on Free At Last. It was kind of surprising.
hewhocutsdown’s last blog post..Noor, the Little Sunshine
If you’re looking for content that’s far from shallow, here’s a Christian hip hop artist who has a Masters Degree in Theology:
http://www.dts.edu/media/play/?MediaItemID=738d01bc-c6bc-4887-b810-ddab83e9cc18
(disclaimer: this is a video highlighting him as a student at Dallas Seminary, where I work as a web developer, but his message is good either way)
Okay, so I’ve had the night to think this over, and maybe I can articulate some stuff that I wasn’t able to last night.
First of all, I agree that throughout your article you are admitting that you don’t know the topic in depth - or even enough to define what it exactly is and where it came from - which leads to the question: why are you the one writing an article about it? Why not talk to people who know the genre, interview artists and people involved in the industry, and then start developing ideas for how to get your point across. Better yet, why not talk to someone who knows it well and then let them write the article using the ideas that you conveyed to them. I just see no reason for someone who admittingly doesn’t know what they’re talking about to attack something that is so important to so many people.
Next,
“Much more, it makes light of the very romance and intrigue that rap music offers its outsiders, supposing that it can simply transplant a culturally saturated style from its origins, substituting in its own evangelical ideology and simultaneously sanitizing the genre of the very rough edges that distinguish it. Thus, no self-respecting music lover can ever take Christian rap seriously. It’s a classic case of divorcing form from content, a perennial no-no in all things aesthetic. Insofar as Christian hip hop does this, we must conclude that it is a failure.”
I have no idea where this is coming from. It almost sounds like you heard KJ-52 and someone from Cross Movement and decided you knew what Christian hip hop was and that it’s a failure. This paragraph is by no means an overview of the genre itself, but simply a look at a few artists/groups who compromise the youth group sect of Christian hip hop artists. I’ll glady admit that there are Christian hip hop artists doing just as you say, but lump the entire genre into this category just shows that you haven’t looked into it much, or perhaps you did, and you just didn’t like it - at which point I begin asking your take on hip hop as a whole.
Also, have you looked to see that Christian hip hop was in a place in the late 90s to become a real force, not only in the Christian market, but in the secular as well? Really talented artists were signed to labels and even Christian hip hop labels (i.e. Grapetree Records, Uprok Records, etc.) were becoming established in the industry. In the end, it was the Christian record label executives that were clueless as to how to market the genre, and a general change in taste among the mass audience as to what hip hop music is (this is a whole different topic)that caused the lack of success and decline. It wasn’t because there weren’t real artists with real talent that understood the balance of hip hop and faith.
As a result, we have what we have today - a few (KJ-52, John Reuben, etc.) Christian rappers signed to Christian labels that now encompass the whole genre, while the other guys can’t even feed their families. It’s not because it doesn’t work, it’s because the labels didn’t know how to make it work.
You speak of Talib Kweli and Mos Def, ask Talib why he has to play on the Warped tour instead of sharing the stage with Kanye or 50 Cent. Ask Mos Def why he went the way of an acting career instead of being a heavyweight in today’s hip hop world. You speak highly of them (and rightly so), but they’re in the same predicament many of the Christian artists you overlooked are - they’re smart, intelligent, artists who have a means to get a point across that are stuck in a world that only understands hip hop to be a really loud bass beat and slurry speech about how cool their clothes are and how many women they have.
Like I said earlier, I’m not mad at you. If it sounds like it, it’s simply because I’m quite passionate about the subject. I agree with many of the points in your article, but I want to make clear that I believe you are missing a huge part of the story.
Peace.
Kiel’s last blog post..Don’t Dink and Drance!
Have you met with any Christian rap/hip hop artists personally? Because I disagree with just about everything you said.
Dang. I hope I haven’t bitten off more than I can chew. One at a time I guess:
@Alan - That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about the development of hip hop music into geographically defined subgenres and that certainly has some relevance to this discussion since I want to account for hip hop in terms of people as much as style. You’re right, it has evolved quite a bit during our own lifetimes.
I’m not exactly sure what that means for my argument. And I’m still fairly comfortable assuming some sort of general cultural cohesion among the various hip hop sects. I mentioned this in the article, but I’ll say it again to cover my bases - I’m a southern middle class white kid. So for me, for the people I know, the evangelicals that I’m surrounded with day in and day out, if one of them decided they wanted to start a Christian rap group, I would roll my eyes at them and say, “Man, that’s not your thing.” To me, that makes as much sense as me starting a Mariachi band - there’s some socially obvious reasons why that would be stupid, even if it’s kind of a fun idea.
@The Dane - Thanks, Seth! I’m pleased to please and your comment made my day.
@Paul - I think that’s definitely a helpful direction to start in, though I wouldn’t want to simplify the call of an MC to that specifically. There’s tons more that ought to be rapped about, such as one’s own lyrical prowess and the intense skill of his accompanying DJ.
@Jordan - I appreciate your comments and your patience with me. I must say, you’ve made this writer’s job much more challenging than I had anticipated. (And that’s not a complaint.)
I don’t really apologize for saying that Christian hip hop as a genre is a failure. Pointing out that there are some really awesome artists out there who get 20 plays a day on their myspace (compare: Talib Kweli has had 1600+ today) simply does not persuade. I call that a failure and I’m trying to explain why I think that happens. If you can explain why Black Star can overcome big label oppression, and The Tunnel Rats don’t, my ear is open, but this is what I see.
@Kiel (btw, I think your name is awesome) - You didn’t list anything here that I didn’t already know. I was hoping to hear about how “the hip hop culture and faith went hand in hand for many of the early pioneers of the genre.” If you have some information along these lines, please, share. This is the kind of stuff that interests me.
@Jared - No, I haven’t.
Scott’s last blog post..The Failure of Christian Hip Hop
I want to quickly touch on your reply to Jordan, in which you compare myspace plays between a nameless artist and Talib Kweli. How can you honestly compare a signed artist in the mainstream market with an unsigned artist? Only a couple Christian emcees have real record deals at this point (and this all goes back to the failures of the labels that I talked about earlier) and have any push from anyone. Therefore, you can’t use that argument to prove anything other than one guy has other guys that want to make money on his side and the other doesn’t.
“Record sales are not a measure of how dope you are” - Sev Statik
Okay, so back in the eighties when hip hop music was getting its sea legs on the west coast, there were plenty of Christians involved in the growth of the hip hop culture. One (and maybe the best) example is a guy named Chris Cooper, or Sup the Chemist. He was part of a group called SFC, and these guys weren’t labeled as anything other than rappers, there was no such thing as “Christian” rap at the time. They did more than pioneer the Christian side of the genre, they were pioneers of hip hop itself in the early nineties as it gained mass popularity in the LA area. They weren’t the only ones . . .
You might know of a group called LA Symphony. Of all of the artists I’ve met, these guys have become some of my close friends. When they were growing up in LA in the late eighties, none of them had any idea at the time of something called Christian rap - once again, it just didn’t exist. But they were Christians who dug rap music and were regularly doing shows in LA with other rap artists (including the Black Eyed Peas) and it was never a situation where they were anything other than rappers. They were Christians who made rap music, and as is the case, their faith was a part of their music.
Did they get crap from time to time? Sure, just as anyone who is affiliated with Christ does. This doesn’t just come with hip hop territory, it’s absolutely a part of everyone’s life who calls themselves a Christian - it doesn’t matter what your occupation is. And it certainly doesn’t automatically mean that it can’t work. It did work. LA Symphony was breathtakingly close to being a crossover success until Warner Brothers Records shut down Squint Entertainment (home to LA Symph, Sixpence None the Richer, Chevelle, and others) just months before their album Call It What You Want was to drop. They were already getting mainstream radio airplay, were on the Yahoo NBA tour, and had an album loaded with good songs, including guest appearances from Prince Paul and Black Eyed Peas.
What I’m saying is, guys were coming up in the hip hop genre that were Christians and had good music, all the while maintaining a message of their faith in Christ. And all of this was before someone even said the words “Christian rap.” Maybe it was the coining of that term and genre that actually did a disservice to everyone involved since the people on the Christian side who knew nothing about hip hop weren’t prepared to utilize it like they should have.
If Christian hip hop is a failure, that’s fine. I know a lot of guys who would be just fine with being failures. There successes weren’t wrapped up in platinum records and fame. They’re content to know that their families and peers respect them, as do those who were affected by the music, like me. God used Christian rap to get the Gospel to me, and it changed my life. If success really is about myspace plays, then I guess you’re right - Christian rap failed. If it happens to be about respect, raw talent, family, and standing for what you believe (all the things that hip hop has been about since its beginnings) then I would argue that Christian rap has not failed.
Kiel’s last blog post..Don’t Dink and Drance!
@Kiel - I only pointed out myspace plays because Jordan used The Tunnel Rats (who I admit are fairly talented) as an example of one of the “dozens” of christian artists who are doing just what Def and Kweli are doing. If both of them are doing the same thing, then why is one seem to be doing sooo much more than the other?
As for your history, I hope you have more to share. I hardly think that L.A. Symphony is in any way representative of the entire West Coast rap phenomenon. You told me that rap and faith went hand in hand with the early developers of that genre: show me. That would be an intriguing story. But talking about a single rap group that didn’t get hooked up with a mainstream Christian record label doesn’t seem like you’re making good on your word.
Look, I can understand your defensiveness. Music played a significant role in my own life when I was coming into the Church circa 16-18. Except, for me, it was the hardcore scene. Now, I’m happy that I got the experiences I got, and I’m glad to have met the people I did, but that doesn’t keep the hardcore scene above reproach. There’s some serious problems that accompany Christian involvement in the hardcore scene, many of them identical to the problems I named above. That doesn’t mean that God didn’t use it in his providence, but I’m more concerned with questions of good, better, and best. And, as I see it, both Christian hXc bands and rap groups may be good, but they could be a lot better, too. I’m trying to draw that out here. If it annoys you, I’m sorry.
Scott’s last blog post..The Failure of Christian Hip Hop
I, too, grew up on the hardcore scene, as well as the gothic/industrial stuff.
Like Kiel, I appreciate and dwell on the exceptional. Secular or Christian, the exceptional are not the average, and there are not as many of them as there are crappy artists. I see some exceptional artists triumph over some of the issues you describe, although by and large your comments hold true.
My complaint is that your vision isn’t broad enough. As someone who grew up on Christian hardcore, you should be able to point out many, many examples of the exact same behaviour and problems in that scene as this one.
So to limit your argument to hip-hop seems absurd and unnecessary. Let’s swallow the whole elephant here.
hewhocutsdown’s last blog post..Noor, the Little Sunshine
Kiel, LA Symph is a good example of how Christian MCs can make good music and be respected by critics and Hip-Hop heads alike, but we gotta admit that they are an anomaly. Really, there are very few Christians doing Hip-Hop in an aesthetically appropriate way: LA Symph, Braille, the guys in Deep Space Five, uh, anyone else? And I think when Scott calls Christian Hip-Hop a failure, he is not necessarily saying that the music is of poor quality (although that is often the case); the artists that are doing things right have still been unable to reach the following the deserve–which is a failure. And in that sense, the blame lays partially with us for not actively pursuing and supporting them.
I think in most cases what this comes down to is purpose. What Scott has pointed out to us is for the most part completely true. The vast majority of Christian Hip-Hop is a failure, and as he’s admitted there are some notable exceptions. I think that many of those exceptions avoid failure by being believers who make music rather than musicians who make “Holy Hip-Hop.”
You know what’s strange, Scott, I am also a middle-class white kid, but I’ve been lucky (blessed) enough to open up for some top (secular) underground acts in LA and our group has been accepted by mostly secular audiences (since we rarely play shows at churches). So for my personal experience, I’d say times are changing. Of course, the style that we use is not gangster rap, jiggy, or club music, so that might account for our acceptance, which brings me back to the point that I think your argument is correct if we fine-tune some of the terms.
Instead of saying Christian Hip-Hop is a failure, I think it would be more productive to talk about how specific styles of Hip-Hop (which still do have very specific connotations and cultural meanings) are (uncritically) co-opted by some Christian artists (for me the Cross Movement often falls into this category) with disastrous aesthetic results.
@Scott - Hm, I have about as much antipathy for hXc as I do for hip-hop (and maybe more, since I’ll very occasionally listen to hip-hop and you’d have to work pretty hard to get me to even consider listening to a whole song of hardcore), but I would read an article from you on how hardcore as a genre fits with the Christian message and experience. How the culture of the hXc scene can or cannot be adequately absorbed into Christian cultures (or at least into the Christian cultures that demand rebranding and sanctifying of secular culture).
Alan,
I’ve hosted two Christian hip hop radio shows, written for two websites and a magazine, bought more Christian rap CDs than is probably healthy, went to every show within a drivable radius of me, and promoted and advertised the heck out of artists who I support. I can honestly say I’ve done just about as much as I can for the Christian hip hop world. Unfortunately, it’s a lot easier for others to sit back and wait for things to happen instead of fighting to make them happen. I’m not trying to puff myself up, because I know plenty of people who have done astonishingly more for the genre than I even thought about, but the fact remains that (you’re right) there wasn’t enough push where there needed to be.
Scott,
Christian hip hop is not above reproach and I’m in no way annoyed by that. I’m annoyed at the painting of an entire genre as a failure due to the lack of excellence in some. Like it or not, that’s the picture you’ve painted, and I’m not the only one who would agree.
I’m not going to go into post after post of the history of hip hop and where its roots lie. I suggest you start getting in contact with some artists and people that put their lives into the industry and start asking questions about how they feel about it. I can guarantee that some will agree that in some ways, failures did happen. Nobody’s arguing that point. But they’ll also be quick to assure you that there’s more to success than record sales and mainstream appeal.
In the end, maybe this is just a disagreement of the term “failure.” Whatever the case, I can’t get past the fact that you’ve talked to no one and admit to not knowing all the facts, but still feel at liberty to make a very large statement about the issue. We can talk back in forth in the comments all day, but I feel like the fact remains that all you’ve got on your side of the argument is the presentation of a few artists who did the genre poorly, myspace plays on Talib Kweli’s page, and an adittingly small knowledge and stake in the genre itself.
There’s not many other topics that could get to me as much as this one, so I apologize if I seem harsh. Trust, that you are not the first to address these issues and this isn’t the first time I’ve tried to defend it. Maybe that makes me more of a fool that I’m able to see or admit.
Kiel’s last blog post..Don’t Dink and Drance!
@Jordan - I was talking with Rich yesterday, and I told him that I already feel like there’s some important changes and clarifications I would make to this article if I was going to publish it again.
To be fair, this is only my first post, so it may a little presumptuous to say that I am singling out Christian hip-hop when the critique could likely be applied to other genres (though, I believe, not to all equally - more on that later). But I guess I brought that on with my rhetoric. Lesson learned.
@Alan - I think that’s helpful. And I think your case might be a good illustration of the relationship between geography and culture. From what little I know of the West Coast, I understand that the cultural fluidity there is significantly greater than here. And I do think that ten-twenty years from now, my article may be a lot less meaningful, given the constant flux of human culture.
@The Dane - I have thought about doing something along those lines. It’s certainly something that I’ve had to reflect on quite a bit. We’ll see. One concern I have is the relative narrowness of the subject matter. Given the aims of this site, I wonder if something as fringe as the hardcore scene is of pertinent interest to the CAPC audience. Hip hop certainly has the edge on accessibility. (Though, apparently, I’ve had little access to it. ;-) ) But it could be interesting.
@Keil - Well, Keil, I must say I’m a little sad that you won’t share even a single link of information about the intimate relationship between faith and early hip hop culture. But I guess that’s your knowledge to horde. Hopefully I’ll run across some other Christian rap enthusiast who’s more generous in sharing his learning.
I’ve admitted to Jordan, and I’ll admit it to you as well, that maybe my rhetoric was little extreme/over-general. Hopefully, I’ll be more careful in the future.
I must say, though, as much as I have an affinity for most things indie, and even though I find that stuff to be some of the most valuable and enjoyable elements of culture, I would encourage you to question whether or not record sales are an indicator of success. To be certain, success in the mainstream is by no means the sole criteria for evaluating musical achievement - but it’s at least an important part of it. Don’t buy into the indie propaganda about the call for perpetual defeatism, as if being blessed with a large audience is failure. There’s something to be said for an artist who can draw together a large fanbase by making excellent music. It certainly doesn’t alway happen that way; usually it happens by otherwise talented individuals distilling their sound to achieve broader appeal, but there are exceptions. I think Talib Kweli and Mos Def are those exceptions. And I call that success, selling-gold-records-that-mean-something-success.
Scott Schultzs last blog post..The Failure of Christian Hip Hop
The Ying Yang Twins have three platinum records. Soulja Boy went gold last year thanks to his artistic masterpiece “Crank That”, and we can’t forget the monster hit “This is Why I’m Hot” that landed Mims in stardom a couple years ago. I guess we should also mention Mike Jones, whose debut album went double platinum a couple years ago.
I’m sorry, but the selling records argument just doesn’t work here. Look, I respect the heck out of Talib Kweli and Mos Def, but their gold records really don’t mean that much compared to what others have done in the hip hop world. It’s a shame, really - and it doesn’t have anything to do with their talent. In this case, it has a lot more to do with the taste-change among the youth culture that was purchasing hip hop at the time when these guys (and many Christian hip hop acts) were beginning to make a move.
I’m pretty sure this is my last post on the topic. It’s obvious that we’ve gotten nowhere. My email is kielhauck@yahoo.com, email me if you want me to write you out an explanation of how spirituality affected the early hip hop scene. Sorry for cluttering up your first post’s comments section with my nonsense.
Kiels last blog post..Don’t Dink and Drance!
Kiel’s right on that score. A gold record in mainstream hip-hop is like 20 myspace listens a day for Christian hip-hop. It’s a pretty low bar, and not something that one brags to friends that “we’re overtaking the medium” or some such.
When even bad hip-hop goes platinum….yeah. See also Kiel’s comments on Kweli’s and Def’s side activities.
hewhocutsdowns last blog post..Noor, the Little Sunshine
It sounds like you haven’t even listened to any quality “Christian” hip-hop…Yeah,there is crap but then there is alot of quality stuff..
It’s just the same as secular stuff, you have the mainstream & the underground within the Secular scene & you have “Gospel Rap”(Mainstream sounding) & the underground in the Christian scene. Both can be comparable as both Mainstream & Gospel Rap are both rapping about a purpose (Mainstream is rapping to make money,they rap about crap & pointless,shallow things.Gospel Rap is rapping about God & spreading a message trying to save people just as Mainstream is trying to suck people into buying their albums so they can be rich,only difference is that Gospel rap isn’t making much money)
Then we have the underground,both Secular & Christian.Both purposes are to rap about life,make good quality music,uplift a persons soul & to let people know that Hip-hop can be positive.
Not saying that all underground stuff is positive or good however,there still crap underground too…
Next time I suggest you do abit more research into what you want to slag off… Please visit http://www.sphereofhiphop.com & get listen to some dope christian hiphop…
Just a question,are you actually a Christian??
Yikes. Not sure how much response this comment warrants.
I guess I’ll answer the single question: Yes.
Scotts last blog post..Placing the Sermon
Arts216
No matter how technically correct your comment is, the attitude is expressed is counter to the spirit of the site.
Please express love, even to your ‘opponent’ - antagonism is a recipe for disaster.
Scott - Thank you for not taking the bait.
Peace
hewhocutsdowns last blog post..The Golden Compass
I think that every negative thing that could be said has already been said. I’ll commend you for your courage, but let me also take another angle.
I think that, in terms of reaching the hip-hop generation specifically, the apparent failure of Christian Hip-Hop could be expanded to include the leaders and supposed pastors of churches that have and/or convey a shallow, self-centered Christianity (”Jesus has a wonderful plan for your life”- true, but far from even an accurate transmission of the Gospel).
If much (not all) of Christian Hip-Hop reflects only a “featherweight” punching power of the Scriptures, perhaps it’s mainly due to the influence of a Christian community that is still on milk when it should be on meat. I think that we may be in agreement on this point.
It seems that the real story here is the failure of Christians in general to offer a substantial, biblical response to the ideas that shape secular hip-hop and specifically the content of individual songs. If Holy Hip-Hop was intended to be that response, it has missed the mark.
What the heck? A commentor who doesn’t wanna crucify Scott? Who engages Scott’s issue and reflects on the Christian culture in which his problem is couched?
If this keeps up, I’ll have to stop reading this comments to this thread because it’s really only people getting mad at Scott that keeps me coming back.
All in all, I think Eric points out something valuable in that if 95% churches out there are interacting poorly with the experience of those in the society, then we should expect a similar percentage of the people within the church to interact poorly with the society when it comes time for them to create. After all, people do as they are trained and if you train them to be shallow, shallow they will be.
The Danes last blog post..20080524
To hewhocutsdown, I wasn’t aware my post was antagonistic..I expressed no hate what so ever..
To Scott,I’m not really sure what you are trying to achieve with this blog,I was under the impression you were not a Christian,I just thought were an athiest trying to slag off “Christian Hip-hop,my mistake.. But I would like to know why you have such a hatred for it??
And are you actually a Hip-hop head?
To Alan Noble:[Quote]”Really, there are very few Christians doing Hip-Hop in an aesthetically appropriate way: LA Symph, Braille, the guys in Deep Space Five, uh, anyone else?[/quote]
Have you actually checked out sites like http://www.sphereofhiphop.com, http://www.illect.com & http://www.syntaxrecords.com/??
[quote]”And I think when Scott calls Christian Hip-Hop a failure, he is not necessarily saying that the music is of poor quality (although that is often the case);”[/quote]
So, record sales is what we are talking here then?? Because they aren’t selling out they are failures??
Guess what??People actually get saved by these “Evangelical” rappers,is that considered a failure??
Or is it just about money & popularity for you?
And to Scott: after re-reading your blog,it came accross to me that you have a problem with “Evangelical Christians”,so I’m not suprised you think Christian Hiphop has “Failed”,they’re not making money or becoming popular within the world,they are trying to win souls for Christ & that’s obviously “failing” for you…
I’m personally not into “Gospel Rap” a heck of alot,exceptions of course, I do like Cross movement & such,because they do make quality music,not feeling their more recent releases however,but that’s ’cause I’m not really into thier style of Hip-hop. I love the underground sound & culture & I have been pleasantly suprised of the amount & quality of Underground “Christian” Hip-Hop to be coming out, so I really don’t understand your way of thinking???
You mentioned “Manchild of Mars ill” in one of your replies.you said “My main criticism is with the genre as a whole, not its rare jewels. And even with groups like Mars ILL, Manchild being one of my all time favorite MCs, I’m still not entirely convinced that he’s going about the whole thing correctly.”
What is he not doin’ correctly??
And what right do you have to tell an artist how to make music? Do you write the rules on how a person should express themselves?
I’m really not understanding where you are coming from..
Arts, I’m going to help you out. When you barrage commenters and writers with machine-gun-fire loaded questions (??), it gives people the impression that you don’t actually have any questions. It sounds more like a rant.
When you ask Alan if he’s ever heard of those sites, you demonstrate that you did not care enough to read this whole thread. For if you had, you might have read that Alan is, in fact, an active member in a legitimate hip hop scene. Much more, if you had lent Alan the charitable reading he deserves, you wouldn’t have misread the very sentence which you quoted from him. You would have seen that, in fact, Alan actually likes the groups he was listing. Because you failed to do this, it sounds like a rant.
When you debut as a commenter on here, calling into question the faith of a writer for a site dedicated to Christian evaluation of Pop Culture, it gives people the impression that you really aren’t interested in paying attention to details or subtleties or qualifications. It makes you look like you just want to rant.
Truth be told, some of your questions are legitimate questions, and under certain circumstances, I might feel obliged to engage them at length. And maybe I will, indirectly gradually, over time - but I have no intention of providing you with ideas and opinions that you’ll likely dismiss out of hand for the sake of God-knows-what agenda.
I actually work pretty hard to write what I write and I put a lot of time and energy into it. If you can show me that you appreciate that and that you are willing to do the same, I’m more than happy to explain at length why I said a lot of the things I said. The comments in this post ought to be a testament to that. But until that is the case, I have not much to say to you.
Scott Schultzs last blog post..Placing the Sermon
who is this guy listening too? mos def and talib kwali are not evangelical and the music from christian hip hop certainly does not stem from them. visit crossmovementrecords.com or reachrecords.com - there are tons of christian hip hop artists that he must not be looking at.
he said it best when he started off “I don’t want to give the impression that I’m an expert on the history or state of hip hop music.” YOU’RE NOT!! lol… be sure to do better research before you post.
Arts216,
Yes, I have. In fact, Illect records is primarily Deep Space Five, which I said is an example of good music. And Braille and LA Symph and are Syntax. And I have supported Sphere of Hip-Hop before, they are a great site. But these are exceptions. As good as they are, they are not receiving the attention and respect they deserve.
As much as underground heads (like myself) want to believe that the underground represents Christian Hip-Hop to the world, it doesn’t. Most cats haven’t even heard of Sintax, Braille, Cookbook, Listener, etc. And from what I understand Scott was/is addressing what is more commonly thought of as “Christian Hip-Hop,” not the exceptions.
Mai,
I don’t know if Scott has heard much from Crossmovement, but I have, and I don’t see how that invalidates anything he says.
I would suggest that anyone who reads this post seek to read it with an open mind, understanding that Scott is not attacking Christian Hip-Hop but is seeking to point out problems which can and should be fixed so that God is glorified by more excellent art. If we aren’t willing to identify a problem, we aren’t going to fix it.
Why even speak on this if you admit that you are unqualified to speak on it, and have done very little research to educate yourself? Seems to me that you’ve already prejudged an entire movement based on your very limited exposure to it.
But Alan, where’s the fun in that?
The Danes last blog post..20080528
Scott,
Thanks for writing and sharing your point of view. Also, I thank you for answering people’s comments and having thick skin. I think I see your heart behind this article. Your heart is that you want Christian rap music to do better and you are suggesting how you see that done by others. I also think you would like for there to be music that grabs you like the black star album. Am I right in these assumptions?
I too liked the black star album. When it came out it was switch from the radio nonsense that was out. It also came out at the right time. The death of biggie and pac opened a lane for Rawkus Records and this is evident by the first Black Star single. The lane that they run in hasn’t been seen since the days of Public Enemy, KRS-1 and BDP. Yet just like those artist Mos and Kweli’s later albums after Quality and Black on Both Sides have struggled with finding acceptance in America by rap’s mainstream, as well as younger consumers—white and black, and non-college educated minorities.
From the standpoint of an artist my one major issue with this article comes with your definition of hip hop. Even without your forthrightness and the disclaimer I could tell your background, mainly because of how you define hip hop. It seems you define hip hop by street cred, but honestly street cred is what companies have pushed to define hip hop. Early hip hop…sugarhill gang, melly mel, furious five wasn’t so much about being hardcore it was just talking about things non-urbanites didn’t see or hear. In many instances black men did not have a voice and the music of rap provided that. Now a days people are so desensitized by things that are occurring in and out of their circles that people think because they’ve heard about the streets for years—thus, the next thing that comes out has to be harder and/or more spectuclar/controversial. Conversely people that are from urban settings can sometimes be desensitized to things that are happening outside of their realm of existence. Survival is high up on the Maslow needs chart, therefore if something is going on in another country a lot of times people don’t talk about it, because they are trying to survive. Many rappers talk about survival—what that looks like is oh so different. Mos Def and Talib are highly educated brothers (talib’s parents are college educators and his mom is an author). They both have been mentored in music by people like QTip, The Alkaholics, and a slew of others that had record deals way before they signed with Rawkus. The availability of those artists to nurture them before they had a deal also helps them articulate what they know and are passionate about in a way that people can find palatable. So can Christian rappers learn from them? Yes. Can other rappers copy them? No, not if you don’t have the same background.
When one learns about other cultures in a good high school you can feel passionate about speaking of survival and world topics. When you travel to other countries and do shows you can speak intelligently about an issue. Background is key. Artist have to do what speaks to them and represent who speaks to them in the way that they are created and in a way that’s true to their background. I have street stories, but unless i embellish them or make them my redundant message–my street cred from a suburban kid might be questioned (that’s ironic in and of itself). whereas when i go home i’m good.
Hip hop should be and historically was about telling one’s story like the African griots of old that told stories to a drum beat. For many Christian rappers that learned how to survive from reading the Bible what else should they speak about? They tell their stories of survival. That’s not a failure. That’s a success. Honesty and character while preaching with boldness. That’s a success.
Do we need growth in the genre? YESSSS!!! More diverse topics? YESSSS!!!! Truths to societal ills? YESSSS!!! More exposure? definitely.
So I hear you Scott, but I don’t think this article should call the music a failure from an artistic standpoint let alone a spiritual, nor do I think a disclaimer at the beginning means you shouldn’t grow in your knowledge. I can’t wait to see you learn more about hip hop (and this is not a diss) and Christian hip hop, because I feel that your voice is needed. I just echo other comments that as of right now, many of the comments above would hold more weight if you had more exposure and developed a more well rounded listening base. Come to rapfest (www.rapfest2000.com) in the Bronx, New York on August 9th!!! That would be a great start.
God Bless
O
Props to Oppose for a gracious comment.
Hey, this is Sundance- hip hop artist and one of the all time post dominators at Sphere of Hip Hop. ;)
@ Scott-
I am not going to flame you for having an opinion, or for not knowing enough about your history either. Why? Because that’s not really the issue at stake here.
What IS at stake, is that the commercial viability of the art itself is beginning to fade away. We have seen a dramatic decrease in mainstream sales, and Christian Hip Hop has never really been but a sub-genre in the CMI (Christian Music Industry) anyways. Our numbers are pretty low in comparison to other forms.
This unfortunately makes it difficult to make the music come off in a way that will “fit” with what the CEO’s believe is what the industry needs. And every thought the mainstream or CMI will have is forever dominated to a large degree by what will sell.
So the road forks from there. Whether mainstream or it’s ostracized red-headed stepchild known as Christian, we have real business obligations to fulfill, and THAT, I submit, is the battleground.
Look at the Israelites. They won many-a-battle, but one thing they did NOT do is NOT fight. And that’s where some of the problem lies. We over-spiritualize our destinies to the point where we really believe that if we just pray enough, the “magical platinum fairy” is going to finally come down to our wack bedroom studio, and “blow us up”. That’s not really God’s style, to me. God’s style is more often than not about blessing the work of a man’s (woman…) hands and slowly steering his life, than just making “magic” for no reason.
So my main point is that Christian hip hop guys need to get their money right. And the church as a unified vehicle in which to do this is about as fail as they come in this point of history, so you all must find new ways to achieve it besides Church. Mayyybe even go out to *gasp* secular venues? (sorry for the sarcasm, it’s only underscored by my bitterness!)
My second point does come back to what you brilliantly put about the one dimensionality of these Hip Hop Ministers. I LOVE that someone not even fully, fully, immersed in this culture picked up on this. It’s a career killer, really. How many ways can you spin and sell this one story? And yet we do have to tell it, so where does that lead us? To better song writing. And face it- rapping and song writing are very close to being almost separate skill sets that are not mutually exclusive in most cases. What sells records…what draws in fans? Real songs. Real stories. That’s where hip hop fails many times. How many people in the general population are going to watch me over the course of my 15+ year career grab my package (for Jesus) and tell them to “put ya hands up” repeatedly? It just stops being interesting.
I think where we are at now is truly on the brink of pure failure. We must reconnect with ourselves, and MUST take a leadership role in the Hip Hop Industry as a whole in establishing warmer and more inviting relationships with our fans. Because right now, the fans are tired. They’re over it. Your rap albums that read “like a big budget film” (brilliant quote from Pigeon John about the mainstream) about ghetto life make me want nap-time. I can’t tell if mainstream rappers hate me or value me. My favorite rapper just threw 100 album sales in the air at strippers! The record companies have been making everyone fit into this silly minstrel-like role for YEARS now. And it’s ridiculous at BEST. Blackness needs to reinvent itself on it’s OWN terms, and needs to flip the labels the bird, and whiteness needs to stfu, and be itself and just make music. Why apologize?
Rap needs to come back down to earth… and hopefully, this new generation can do it.
interesting stuff…
MaxOnes last blog post..Cafe Syntax
To Scott: Quote:”When you barrage commenters and writers with machine-gun-fire loaded questions (??), it gives people the impression that you don’t actually have any questions. It sounds more like a rant.”
Sorry I don’t have a degree in english writing.. I was not ranting just asking simple questions & you can’t even answer them..
You seem to be attacking my posts & not others that disagree with you…If my posts came accross as hateful, they were not supposed to,I’m am merely expressing my opinion on something i’m passionate about..
Arts216
Whatever their intent, your comments distinctly came across as antagonistic and Scott has dealt gracefully by not responding in kind. In other contexts, this is known as trolling, and is discouraged.
While some of the questions may have validity to this discussion, and are hoping responded to, your tone and choice of words communicates volumes - in this case, a verbal attack on Scott.
I may not agree 100% with him either (or 80%, or whatever) but that doesn’t mean we can’t dialog with grace. The collective ‘we’ just ask the same of you.
Perhaps a rephrase of some of the questions would merit a deeper response.
hewhocutsdowns last blog post..Celldweller
To hewhocutsdown: I don’t see how my comments came accross as antagonistic,as I said I don’t have a degree in english writing..
I don’t see how my posts were any different from that of Jared,Mai or Alexander,they all expressed their opinion in the same manner but don’t get attacked…
I got critisized by Scott for questioning his “Faith” because his post didn’t come across as that of a “Christian”,so I assumed he was not, but yet I get called “Antagonistic” becasue my post came across as antgonistic,which is also an assumption.
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@Arts - Rather than just tell you that your comments are being taken as antagonistic, I thought I’d explain why. Being rather well-versed in internet antagonism, I thought maybe I could help you understand why others are perhaps misunderstanding your efforts.
Your first comment didn’t actually appear to be that riled-up to me until you hit your stride at the end. It’s true that you come off as being a little bit patronizing at the start, but it’s the end where you win negativity points. You mention that you’re not exactly aces with English or writing, so you may not realize it but the double-question mark (??) you seem to favour does your comments a lot of damage. Double-question marks are generally read as carrying a lot of passion and mostly convey something like frank disbelief or sarcastic skepticism. Adding terms like “even” or “actually” tend to strengthen the passion or fury of a question.
Here’s an example. If I ask:
Do you believe in Mormonism?
One might reasonably read me as asking a genuine question, wondering whether you are Mormon or not? However, if we change our example to:
Do you actually believe in Mormonism??
People will read me (whether you intend it or not) to be condescendingly asking whether you are actually stupid enough to believe in Mormonism, something I seem to be implying to be quite ridiculous.
Therefore, when you ask Scott:
Just a question,are you actually a Christian??
You come off as completely patronizing (whether you intend to or not). It sounds like after having read his article that you cannot possibly imagine how he could be a Christian, that somehow his sentiments in the article seem indicators that he doesn’t believe in the gospel testimony of Jesus Christ. And most readers (and probably scott himself) will naturally find such a comment offensive and antagonistic. Whether you mean it or not.
In later comments, you adopt a similar tactic with Alan, saying:
So, record sales is what we are talking here then?? Because they aren’t selling out they are failures?? Guess what??People actually get saved by these “Evangelical” rappers,is that considered a failure?? Or is it just about money & popularity for you?
Again, the use of the double-question marks (??) make it read as though you think little of the intelligence of the people with whom you are presumably attempting to converse.* Then, you bust out the “Guess what??” That makes it sound as if you’re dealing with a child or someone far beneath your present level of education. Someone who clearly knows nothing of the topic or situation at hand. Whether this is what you meant to do, your words and phrases, and writing choices hold meaning to the people reading you—and what they read from you isn’t going to ingratiate you with them. Then you ask a question that almost has to be read as you presuming unfair motivation behind Alan’s words: “Or is it just about money & popularity for you?”
These are tactics you’ll wish to keep a rein on if you don’t wish to appear as antagonistic.
Some other terms you may wish to avoid: clearly, obviously, plainly, certainly. These are considered charged terms and are used to demonstrate the foolishness of any who happen to disagree with you. You use “obviously” later with Scott, saying that because some hip-hop artists are trying to win souls for Christ, Scott “obviously” considers that failing.
You mention Mai’s comment and wonder why no one chastised her for the antagonistic tone she exhibits. So far as I could tell, Scott completely ignored her post as it was pretty worthless and obviously antagonistic. Alan was actually pretty diplomatic in even granting her a response. She’d probably get more of a response if she continued interacting, but she seemed to be a one-off. Just someone who wanted to post her disgust with the article but didn’t care to follow up on the conversation. Same goes for Alexander and Jared, neither of whom had anything to add to the conversation but simply wished to register their disapproval and do so in an unhelpful manner.
I think the reason you have been reacted to is that you seem to be following the discussion and interested in interaction. You were engaged by Scott, Alan, and hewhocutsdown precisely because you have continued to attempt to engage the conversation (and sometimes with valid points). You were originally engaged because you questioned Scott’s faith; otherwise, you may have just been ignored (at least by Scott). And many of the comments have reinforced the desire to keep you involved, but to steer you toward involvement in a more constructive manner.
Hope this helps.
*note: my use of “presumably” here is an example of what not to do. It forces readers to consider that I may not actually believe that you are honestly attempting to converse with Scott and the other commentors. This is the kind of thing you want to avoid if you want people to take you seriously.
The Danes last blog post..20080528
Thanks Dane, these were exactly the indicators saying to me ‘this sounds more like starting a fight than a conversation’. Like The Dane said, if a conversation is what you’re after, we’re more than willing to have it; we don’t want to patronize you or your opinions, but neither do we want to allow flagrant disrespect.
You were ‘targeted’ because you were involved. That’s a good thing. :) I hope you stick around.
By the way, I have no affiliation with Christ & Pop Culture aside from reading it periodically, and I’ve enjoyed the comments thread on this article. Hope you don’t take offense; if you follow some of the Dane’s suggestions you’ll be on a great start!
Peace
hewhocutsdowns last blog post..Celldweller
There has been a lot of goings on in this thread and I don’t want to ignore the many good contributions from Alan and the Dane and especially from Oppose and Sundance, but to take it in a slightly different (and possibly productive) direction, I’d like to take Deep Space Five as a case in point.
I’ve already shared that I’m a Mars ILL fan. I also used to be an Ill Harmonics fan, and I know that Playdough was definitely the better of the pair. I own the The Night We Call It a Day and I’ve listened to it pretty thoroughly. There are definitely some high points to that album. A number of those tracks are on my iPod playlist. As much potential as I might perceive in those emcees and DJs, and as much as I might enjoy parts of their music, I still consider the album to be aesthetically mediocre.
I should clarify that in asserting the “failure of Christian Hip Hop” I am not saying “Christian Hip Hop sucks.” I think a lot of people got that impression from this piece and that seems to explain their utter incredulity that I would make sweeping dismissals of their favorite genre. I actually like Christian Rap.
I think it could be better though. I suggested a couple ways that Christian Rappers could improve by pointing to the merits of a classic hip hop duo.
I also raised some points that I think are quite important. For instance, I know of a single Presbyterian-ish rap group. I know of no Anglicans, no Lutherans, no Roman Catholics, no Greek Orthodox rappers. Now, granted, it has been pointed out to me over and over throughout this thread that I’m an ignorant dummy. But from the vantage of my ignorance, I get the impression that the Christianity of Christian Hip Hop is the religion of American Evangelicalism, a religious phenomenon that has seemingly no end to its ails. I find that extremely relevant to our discussion here and it was a bit of a hidden point that I’d hoped someone would have caught on to.
So… any takers?
Scott Schultzs last blog post..Placing the Sermon
I’ll take you up on that.
“I get the impression that the Christianity of Christian Hip Hop is the religion of American Evangelicalism, a religious phenomenon that has seemingly no end to its ails.”
For the most part you’d be correct, but not entirely. This is a hip hop generation defined by using what is available and “remaking” music into it’s own style or genre. In the same sense, I believe the same thing is happening with the christian hip hop community. As we view, and sample,the religious ideaology of our fathers,we are committed to reclaiming them by chopping and replaying them in a way that becomes more relevant to the current “pop culture”. We are concerned with representing diverse denominational viewpoints, but not just for the sake of diversity.
As we have experienced, firsthand for me, the christian hip hop culture has matured through it’s own season of denominationalism. There was a time when we had “schisms” within. Do you FREESTYLE? Do you BATTLE? Do you reference scripture, or just tell stories? We actually had conferences,in the mid 90’s, that were exclusively geared for unity in the genre. There was much division. And after growing through that and fighting for a unified voice, I believe we have progressed beyond the schisms and present a much more unified voice, in message if not artistry.
Hip Hop, of the christian variety is not a place to discuss theological variance and difference, any more than ANY creative outlet or vocation is a place held exclusively for the definition of denominational difference. It is more a place to voice, through music, life and how Christ has intersected us, arrested us and informed our worldview. We are not theology dispensers, at least most of us aren’t. We are artists. Artists use art to express what our language can’t.
When you suppose that DS5(manChild is Catholic), LA Symph, TR’s (myself being a founding member) have the intention of evangelising through music you do yourself a disservice. While evangelism may happen because of these groups, it may not have been the intent. It most likely was simply, “I rap and I believe in Jesus, here’s what it sounds like.” The rest is just fallout. We never attempted to propagate (sp?) our denominational views, we never really presumed to know our theological tenets of faith. We just believed and rapped. As we have grown older, and matured in the Lord it has become more vital to our relationship to be able to articulate what we believe and why we believe it. It doesn’t necessarily mean that our art is the vehicle to do so. That’s better left to the pulpit. And don’t presume every mic is a pulpit. It’s not so. Not anymore so than ANY vocation is a pulpit.
The assumption that any stage is a stage for evangelism comes from American Imperial Evangelism (you like that one?). It is what most of us fought our way o