Maybe giving artist suggestions would be more benificial to those who are reading?

The Danes last blog post..20081119.ChurchLies

It was new.

The Danes last blog post..20081119.ChurchLies

While my post is a response to the idea that Christian hip hop has failed, which is part of your original post. I’m not necessarily addressing all of your points, I’m just making a defense in general for why it’s not a failure. As I said before, I think you made some good points in your post – you also made some poor ones. Also, I realize you’re not completely oblivious, but as for the idea that you aren’t very educated on the subject, you seem to have brought that on yourself. I’m not trying to harass you and make stuff up about you, I’m just going from things you said during your first post.

First, I believe that the community aspect of hip hop is absolutely PERFECT and not a conflict of interests at all. Rich and I have had discussions on this very same issue, and he sides with your stance. That’s fine though, no one is asking you to jump on board with hip hop ministry. However, while it may not be part of your ministry in particular, I think you may find it beneficial to at least see where God is working respect that work that people are putting into their ministry in this area. Personally, I see no indication that we need, or are required to have, some sort of universal community of worship and while it may be desired, it will not be fulfilled until Christ comes again. In the meantime, as we can see in the life and ministry of Paul and others (including Jesus) the local community is a good place to start.

The second point has everything to do with my argument. The artists and the art they make are not (fully) to blame. The blame of good and relevant Christian hip hop music not reaching a wider audience is the fault of the suits who didn’t understand how to market it. This does not prove anything other than money-hungry CEOs failed the artists – not that Christianity and hip hop are incompatible. I find that point absurd.

I also understand that “emotional tie” arguments often times come off as romantic and far fetched, so you are welcome to take the stance you do. However, you are very wrong if you’re assuming I have not somehow matured beyond my childish musical tastes as you have. Just because something was beneficial in what it did in the beginning, does not mean that it needs to be left behind for something better. There IS good, artistic, relevant, and real Christian hip hop music. To assume that I perhaps am clinging to some romantic idea that Christian hip hop music is good just because it influenced me years ago is just wrong bro. I have no way of proving that point to you though, so I guess you’ll just have to take my word for it (and the words of many others).

My wife (my wiser half) has told me that you and I more than likely have a different view of success and failure, thus making this a never ending debate. It also appears that we have a different view of what ministry is and what tools can be used in the process. We are planning on being career missionaries, most likely in Japan, where we will be working in hip hop ministry there (as in the past decade, a Japanese brand of hip hop has begun having a huge impact on youth there opening doors for ministry, but this is another topic altogether).

In the end, I’m not sure what more there is to say. We’ll agree to disagree I suppose, and I’m sure you can understand why I felt the need to make my own defense of something that I felt couldn’t be left without response. Thanks for the reply.

Kiels last blog post..When I Get Home You’re So Dead

And I just wanna clarify something real quick (though this should have been obvious from the comments on my original post): While I have never been a resident of the Christian hip hop scene, I’m not oblivious to it. I know most of the artists you bring up, and I considered them when writing my post. Maybe I’m not immersed in their material enough to make a sound judgment of their genre – maybe – but I keep feeling like you think that I think Christian hip hop = KJ-52. Gimme a little credit.

As per your points, I was a little amazed from the get-go that your first defense of Christian hip hop was actually one of my main criticisms of it. Not that I am against a community-based genre, but I find the fact that rap music is so intimately linked with African-American culture, taking on their unique history as its driving basis for existence, that attempting to “redeem” the genre and claim it for Christ causes problematic conflicts of interest. Because, whereas the African-American narrative involves liberation from the residue of European imperialism, the Christian narrative involves a much grander and more important sort of liberation. In fact, I actually believe that the Christian narrative provides a proper basis for a distinct community that creates a culturally distinct sort of music. I don’t intend to debate “worship styles” here, but I think that properly Christian music is liturgically-intended “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.” I have some ideas of how that affects the secular sphere, but for now, that’s neither here nor there.

As for your second point, I’m not sure what this has to do with my argument or yours. The fact that the Christian market mishandled Christian rap, while sociologically interesting, hardly establishes anything about the music as we are discussing it. If anything, your point may lead to conceding my own: Maybe Christian culture and hip hop culture are not finally compatible.

As for your last point, I think it really reveals the heart behind your arguing. You clearly have deep emotional ties to the genre, and are gratuitously thankful for your coming into the Christian Church through it. It’s not my intention to take that away from you Kiel. I have the same inclinations toward Evergreen Terrace, In Due Time, Stretch Arm Strong, Zao, Norma Jean and .hopesfall., but part of maturity, for me, has meant that there is a difference between good, better, and best. I think it’s a good thing what you’re perceiving in Christian hip hop, the influence it has on peoples’ lives and such. I’m glad it did and does. But my critique stems as much from ecclesiological concerns as from aesthetic ones. There is something deeply problematic with the idea of “hip hop ministry.” Now, I think you probably don’t agree with me, and that’s fine. I have a deep suspicion of many sorts of parachurch ministries, and find them to be a real threat to ministry proper. I’m a Word and Sacrament guy, and will do anything I can to keep people from placing their hope in lesser glories (e.g. various cultural wares). This is a much larger discussion, and I don’t know if I want to have it here, like this. But maybe you can at least appreciate a bit more where I’m coming from.

Scott Schultzs last blog post..Jenson on the Theology of the Church