Comments on: Sin and the City http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/ Where the Christian Faith Meets March Madness Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:13:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Owen http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-694 Owen Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:09:39 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-694 Very thoughtful post. Good writing. Sound analysis of the show. Great prescription at the end. This site offers valuable content--keep up the good work, guys. Very thoughtful post. Good writing. Sound analysis of the show. Great prescription at the end.

This site offers valuable content–keep up the good work, guys.

]]> By: David Dunham http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-693 David Dunham Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:47:41 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-693 It seems to me that the character Samantha, who started the whole "let's have sex and date like men do" idea, does not have any desire to settle down. Also in later episodes she clearly becomes a lesbian. As to the issue of friendship, I think it can be agreed that friendship is a great thing. The issue I am making with this show is that physical and relational intimacy need to come from the same place. I am not saying exclusively...but the show has largely divorced the idea that phyiscal and relational intimacy can be found in a man. That's the critique I have offered. It seems to me that the character Samantha, who started the whole “let’s have sex and date like men do” idea, does not have any desire to settle down. Also in later episodes she clearly becomes a lesbian.

As to the issue of friendship, I think it can be agreed that friendship is a great thing. The issue I am making with this show is that physical and relational intimacy need to come from the same place. I am not saying exclusively…but the show has largely divorced the idea that phyiscal and relational intimacy can be found in a man.

That’s the critique I have offered.

]]> By: Geoffrey Seven http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-679 Geoffrey Seven Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:17:16 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-679 As a regular watcher of Sex & the City when it was originally aired, I have to say that Jay makes another critical point -- the women ALL wanted to settle down with Mr. Right. Indeed, a key storyline structuring the series was Carrie's unrequited (or occasionally requited) love for a man identified only as "Mr. Big". And the big payoff of the last episode comes when Big finally recognizes that Carrie really is the only woman for him, and goes off to Paris to rescue her from a disastrous relationship with an artsy, self-involved Russian played by Mikhail Baryshnikov. In the same timeframe, Samantha has realized that her boy toy, Smith, is loaded with substance, supporting her during her chemo and deciding -- of his own volition -- to be faithful to her. Steve and Miranda have decided to make their relationship work because they've had a baby together -- and because they're determined for it to work, it does. Equally commitment-and-baby-minded Charlotte is married to Harry and they're looking into adoption. So much for the unfettered celebration of free sex. These are women who want love and commitment and families. And in the end, each of them makes significant compromises in order to have that. As a regular watcher of Sex & the City when it was originally aired, I have to say that Jay makes another critical point — the women ALL wanted to settle down with Mr. Right. Indeed, a key storyline structuring the series was Carrie’s unrequited (or occasionally requited) love for a man identified only as “Mr. Big”. And the big payoff of the last episode comes when Big finally recognizes that Carrie really is the only woman for him, and goes off to Paris to rescue her from a disastrous relationship with an artsy, self-involved Russian played by Mikhail Baryshnikov. In the same timeframe, Samantha has realized that her boy toy, Smith, is loaded with substance, supporting her during her chemo and deciding — of his own volition — to be faithful to her. Steve and Miranda have decided to make their relationship work because they’ve had a baby together — and because they’re determined for it to work, it does. Equally commitment-and-baby-minded Charlotte is married to Harry and they’re looking into adoption.

So much for the unfettered celebration of free sex. These are women who want love and commitment and families. And in the end, each of them makes significant compromises in order to have that.

]]> By: jaytheson http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-678 jaytheson Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:10:58 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-678 You are correct to a point. I agree that activities like "Men's Morning with the Master" are at times a needless subdivision. But, I wouldn't call it empty. It is whatever fits your fancy. The women on sex and the city meet to find support with each other. You could probably substitute a guy in there and things wouldn't change a bit. I was just trying to make a point that the women meeting together doesn't somehow support homosexuality or exalt unmarried living. It is a group of people enjoying community centered around, not Christ, but the plight of unmarried women. I mentioned same sex groups to serve as a parallel as a majority of church's have some type of sex segregated event on a fairly regular basis. I don't know if these women in the show have formed a clique on the basis of "arbitrary cultural outliers". I think what they go through, while to an extreme, is what many women go through. I would say that anytime you are enjoying relationship with people it is not empty--it means something and does a lot for people. Loneliness kills. But to your point about "the best they can find", I AGREE!! It is great when people from all areas can come together in community. Regardless of life story...homosexual, divorced, single, married, man, woman, transexual, poor, rich, immigrant, white, black...and the list could go on. That is the community I want to be a part of where all people are welcome to join in the journey of trying to connect with God in this world. It is the church's calling to create this environment. It is what will change the world. HOWEVER, women or men who live lives like those in sex and the city probably wouldn't want to be a part of the vast majority of Christian communities because the church has become a clique unto itself. Come all those who are weary and heavy laden. That is the dream and the hope. The women in sex and the city are surely weary and heavy laden with this world. It is my prayer that women or men like them are welcomed to a place where they can bring that "junk", the hurt, to a place where they may find peace and love. Just like I and you Dane lament the boundary between men and women in the church, may we also be grieved by the gross distinctions many church communities have made between race, lifestyle, sexual orientation, and political positioning, rendering the church to be a community for some and not all. You are correct to a point. I agree that activities like “Men’s Morning with the Master” are at times a needless subdivision. But, I wouldn’t call it empty.

It is whatever fits your fancy. The women on sex and the city meet to find support with each other. You could probably substitute a guy in there and things wouldn’t change a bit.

I was just trying to make a point that the women meeting together doesn’t somehow support homosexuality or exalt unmarried living. It is a group of people enjoying community centered around, not Christ, but the plight of unmarried women. I mentioned same sex groups to serve as a parallel as a majority of church’s have some type of sex segregated event on a fairly regular basis.

I don’t know if these women in the show have formed a clique on the basis of “arbitrary cultural outliers”. I think what they go through, while to an extreme, is what many women go through. I would say that anytime you are enjoying relationship with people it is not empty–it means something and does a lot for people. Loneliness kills.

But to your point about “the best they can find”, I AGREE!! It is great when people from all areas can come together in community. Regardless of life story…homosexual, divorced, single, married, man, woman, transexual, poor, rich, immigrant, white, black…and the list could go on. That is the community I want to be a part of where all people are welcome to join in the journey of trying to connect with God in this world.

It is the church’s calling to create this environment. It is what will change the world. HOWEVER, women or men who live lives like those in sex and the city probably wouldn’t want to be a part of the vast majority of Christian communities because the church has become a clique unto itself.

Come all those who are weary and heavy laden. That is the dream and the hope. The women in sex and the city are surely weary and heavy laden with this world. It is my prayer that women or men like them are welcomed to a place where they can bring that “junk”, the hurt, to a place where they may find peace and love. Just like I and you Dane lament the boundary between men and women in the church, may we also be grieved by the gross distinctions many church communities have made between race, lifestyle, sexual orientation, and political positioning, rendering the church to be a community for some and not all.

]]> By: The Dane http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-677 The Dane Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:35:57 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-677 Interestingly (I imagine), I loathe the idea of men's and women's groups in the church. A men's group has nothing to offer me that the gathered body of Christ doesn't (except perhaps an interest in an artificially crafted community). I find the segregation pointless—and maybe even harmful. I mean, since when do I need to be all about the Super Bowl? Since when am I not interested in toying with crafts. Since when is there anything I could talk about with a man that I couldn't likewise talk about with a woman? I suspect it's the same for many women as well. Not all women want tea parties and scrap-booking nights. This kind of empty community might be fine for non-believers (it may be the best they can find), but Christians have something far better so it's painful to see them form cliques based upon arbitrary cultural outliers. Really, the only thing common among males of the species is that they all have penises. And I assure you, I have never heard <i>that</i> topic come up when the men are gathered and bonding or whatever it is they are to do in the sub-community, the clique, known as the Men's Bible Study. Interestingly (I imagine), I loathe the idea of men’s and women’s groups in the church. A men’s group has nothing to offer me that the gathered body of Christ doesn’t (except perhaps an interest in an artificially crafted community). I find the segregation pointless—and maybe even harmful.

I mean, since when do I need to be all about the Super Bowl? Since when am I not interested in toying with crafts. Since when is there anything I could talk about with a man that I couldn’t likewise talk about with a woman?

I suspect it’s the same for many women as well. Not all women want tea parties and scrap-booking nights.

This kind of empty community might be fine for non-believers (it may be the best they can find), but Christians have something far better so it’s painful to see them form cliques based upon arbitrary cultural outliers. Really, the only thing common among males of the species is that they all have penises.

And I assure you, I have never heard that topic come up when the men are gathered and bonding or whatever it is they are to do in the sub-community, the clique, known as the Men’s Bible Study.

]]> By: jaytheson http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-676 jaytheson Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:29:16 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-676 I want to change the trajectory of the conversation a bit as I found some interesting points in the original post. The comment that stood out most to me, was in regards to the show blurring the line between heterosexual and homosexual. I don't all together see the link. The leading women in the show don't get together and have PJ parties where they play spin the bottle and share in "other" physical encounters. They share their life. If anything, I think that is one of the redeemable characteristics of the show. While I find the high level of sexual promiscuity lamentable, I think their common bond in this plight is admirable. In a society where it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain meaningful relationships, these women do find love and support while they live in this world. Furthermore on this point, (I have only seen maybe 3 or 4 shows) but these women do indeed dabble with the idea of settling down. I think they want to... I was listening to NPR on Valentine's day and they had a 30 something expert on the air imploring women who are older (30+) to settle because they weren't going to find a "better" guy. Looking at this in context of sex and the city you see what our consumeristic society has produced. We shop around to find the best deal and are willing to get rid of something for the latest and greatest. Sex and the City embodies this principle. The women are afraid to settle because they fear that after they buy, a new model will come their way exceeding the merits of their outdated merchandise. Sad. Yeah. I lament. So what they are engaging in isn't an attempt to usurp Christian values or the proper role of man and woman. It is a reflection of the lives of a lot of 40 and under people in this world who have more choices than ever. To conclude, I am glad these women have friends, for this world isn't a friendly place. We Christians have the same type of community when we engage in same-sex bible study. Or Women's Evenings or Men's days. We do the same thing. Maybe less gossip and less NC-17 topics, but still the same type of community. People need this. Ministering to our culture in this sense would be less suring up the proper roles of men and women and more of pointing out the church is about community. Sharing lives together. However, this could backfire in that the women in Sex and the City would fear condemnation.... Just a thought. I want to change the trajectory of the conversation a bit as I found some interesting points in the original post. The comment that stood out most to me, was in regards to the show blurring the line between heterosexual and homosexual. I don’t all together see the link.

The leading women in the show don’t get together and have PJ parties where they play spin the bottle and share in “other” physical encounters. They share their life. If anything, I think that is one of the redeemable characteristics of the show. While I find the high level of sexual promiscuity lamentable, I think their common bond in this plight is admirable.

In a society where it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain meaningful relationships, these women do find love and support while they live in this world. Furthermore on this point, (I have only seen maybe 3 or 4 shows) but these women do indeed dabble with the idea of settling down. I think they want to…

I was listening to NPR on Valentine’s day and they had a 30 something expert on the air imploring women who are older (30+) to settle because they weren’t going to find a “better” guy. Looking at this in context of sex and the city you see what our consumeristic society has produced. We shop around to find the best deal and are willing to get rid of something for the latest and greatest.

Sex and the City embodies this principle. The women are afraid to settle because they fear that after they buy, a new model will come their way exceeding the merits of their outdated merchandise. Sad. Yeah. I lament.

So what they are engaging in isn’t an attempt to usurp Christian values or the proper role of man and woman. It is a reflection of the lives of a lot of 40 and under people in this world who have more choices than ever.

To conclude, I am glad these women have friends, for this world isn’t a friendly place. We Christians have the same type of community when we engage in same-sex bible study. Or Women’s Evenings or Men’s days. We do the same thing. Maybe less gossip and less NC-17 topics, but still the same type of community. People need this.

Ministering to our culture in this sense would be less suring up the proper roles of men and women and more of pointing out the church is about community. Sharing lives together. However, this could backfire in that the women in Sex and the City would fear condemnation….

Just a thought.

]]> By: Geoffrey Seven http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-674 Geoffrey Seven Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:49:38 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-674 That is certainly an excellent point, Dane. That is certainly an excellent point, Dane.

]]> By: The Dane http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-671 The Dane Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:40:42 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-671 From purely anecdotal evidence, I'd say the tendency for women to be users is pretty high too. I think the reason the stereotype belongs to men is that societally, we still want to imagine women to be sweeter and more innocent—the fairer sex. I think that we get disturbed by just how egalitarian reality can be. From purely anecdotal evidence, I’d say the tendency for women to be users is pretty high too. I think the reason the stereotype belongs to men is that societally, we still want to imagine women to be sweeter and more innocent—the fairer sex. I think that we get disturbed by just how egalitarian reality can be.

]]> By: Geoffrey Seven http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-669 Geoffrey Seven Mon, 18 Feb 2008 02:34:14 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-669 I think the point the study makes is that "the sinful tendency to use women for selfish pleasure" is less true of young men than we may believe it to be. Further, while sin is indeed a natural inclination, it is certainly not our only inclination. There is also a healthy and positive inclination for love and emotional intimacy. I do not think that efforts at "correction" that ignore this would be very likely to work. I think the point the study makes is that “the sinful tendency to use women for selfish pleasure” is less true of young men than we may believe it to be. Further, while sin is indeed a natural inclination, it is certainly not our only inclination. There is also a healthy and positive inclination for love and emotional intimacy. I do not think that efforts at “correction” that ignore this would be very likely to work.

]]> By: David Dunham http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-668 David Dunham Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:23:20 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-668 Perhaps this is true Geoffrey, but sin the sinful tendency to use women for selfish pleasure and then leave them off is probably what the culture is tapping into...and because sin is our "natural inclination" I am not sure how much head-way could be made by tapping into this other inclination. Perhaps this is true Geoffrey, but sin the sinful tendency to use women for selfish pleasure and then leave them off is probably what the culture is tapping into…and because sin is our “natural inclination” I am not sure how much head-way could be made by tapping into this other inclination.

]]> By: Geoffrey Seven http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-667 Geoffrey Seven Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:41:33 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-667 Before we accept without question the stereotype noted above that men "have sex without feeling any attachment to the person [we're] having it with," here's an interesting study on the topic: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/inside-the-mind-of-the-boy-dating-your-daughter/?hp The findings suggest that boys are motivated more by love than lust in pursuing sexual relationships with girls. It that is true, then it suggests that the stereotype has more to do with a cultural machine that pushes MEN to act against their real feelings and deep relational needs when it comes to sexuality. Christians might be able to do a lot of good by simply tapping into the natural inclination of boys to act out of love for their partners, and helping them recognize that sex before marriage is not in her -- or his -- best interests. Before we accept without question the stereotype noted above that men “have sex without feeling any attachment to the person [we're] having it with,” here’s an interesting study on the topic: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/inside-the-mind-of-the-boy-dating-your-daughter/?hp

The findings suggest that boys are motivated more by love than lust in pursuing sexual relationships with girls. It that is true, then it suggests that the stereotype has more to do with a cultural machine that pushes MEN to act against their real feelings and deep relational needs when it comes to sexuality. Christians might be able to do a lot of good by simply tapping into the natural inclination of boys to act out of love for their partners, and helping them recognize that sex before marriage is not in her — or his — best interests.

]]> By: Church, Gender, Religion & Romance | Said at Southern Seminary http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-661 Church, Gender, Religion & Romance | Said at Southern Seminary Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:59:31 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-661 [...] Dunham describes the flawed gender roles on display in the HBO series Sex and the [...] [...] Dunham describes the flawed gender roles on display in the HBO series Sex and the [...]

]]> By: David Dunham http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-658 David Dunham Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:49:17 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-658 Well of course it is! My point in the article is not to condemn culture, but to remind Christians to first, take care of this issue in our own home (the church) and then to loving reform culture (of course I recognize that "reforming the culture" looks different to almost every individual). And while it is true that non-Christians can't obey God's rules without first being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, that does not mean that we can't use their sin to lovingly point them to Christ. That should be our goal whenever we have to deal with cultural sin. A point I could have certainly made more clear in my writing. Thanks for the question. Well of course it is! My point in the article is not to condemn culture, but to remind Christians to first, take care of this issue in our own home (the church) and then to loving reform culture (of course I recognize that “reforming the culture” looks different to almost every individual).

And while it is true that non-Christians can’t obey God’s rules without first being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, that does not mean that we can’t use their sin to lovingly point them to Christ. That should be our goal whenever we have to deal with cultural sin. A point I could have certainly made more clear in my writing. Thanks for the question.

]]> By: The Pundit http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-656 The Pundit Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:45:47 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-656 David, Hmmm.... I think it is in the area of sexual ethics that the most glaring differences between Christians and non-Christians is seen (unlike, say, with murder or lying). So here's my question: Given the oddity of the "Christian view of sex," is it not a bit much to expect non-Christians to conform to the church's rules? David,

Hmmm….

I think it is in the area of sexual ethics that the most glaring differences between Christians and non-Christians is seen (unlike, say, with murder or lying).

So here’s my question: Given the oddity of the “Christian view of sex,” is it not a bit much to expect non-Christians to conform to the church’s rules?

]]> By: Ben Bartlett http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-655 Ben Bartlett Thu, 14 Feb 2008 02:04:49 +0000 http://www.christandpopculture.com/television/sin-and-the-city-or-what-i-learned-from-sex-and-the-city/#comment-655 David, Thanks for this thoughtful post. I think you make great points about the way shows like this "blur" lines that should be clear. It also made me recognize the the dangerous problem of separating the physical and the intimate relationship. Very helpful, and a solid "way forward" to think about. David,

Thanks for this thoughtful post. I think you make great points about the way shows like this “blur” lines that should be clear. It also made me recognize the the dangerous problem of separating the physical and the intimate relationship. Very helpful, and a solid “way forward” to think about.

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